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Post by Forsaken on Sept 30, 2017 10:05:33 GMT
More then most factions what you want to play really influences what you should buy. Circle is similar to mercs in that we are kind of several mini factions loosely bundled into one.
One of our themes, and one of our casters, is limited to (nearly) exclusively construct beasts and 2 other themes are (nearly) exclusively living beasts. Our tharn models (approximately 1/3 of our infantry) can be taken in only one theme. Our wolf sworn (also about 1/3 of our infantry) can only be in one theme. The Death wolves character unit are the exception because they can be in either of those exclusive themes. The blackclad units are more versatile and can be in multiple themes to some degree. I highly recommend at least one blackclad wayfarer. The shifting stones and gallows groves are universally available and are worth having in just about any list. Oddly, due to the way minions are available now most of them are more universal then faction units.
As for beasts if you go living you probably want at least one wild argus and each of the non-character warpwolves. Magnetizing the warpwolf kit is a fairly easy and economic route to take with them. If you like living beasts getting the starter box is a really solid move. If you go construct beasts (wolds) many changes are in the pipeline to improve them and probably the best wold unit is the woldwyrd which work best with 2+ and they are fairly inexpensive to buy.
I really encourage you to proxy and play to find what you like before buying anything. The warlock you choose has a huge impact on your build.
Good luck.
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Post by Forsaken on Sept 24, 2017 22:43:21 GMT
Krueger2 - Megalith - Pureblood - Woldwyrd - Woldwyrd - Argus Moonhound Celestial Fulcrum Sentry Stone Sentry Stone Shifting Stones Hutchuck Gremlin Swarm You can play the same build in secret masters... in bones you really want curse of shadows. I'm playing Mohsar bones lately with double guardians, double wyrds and fulcrum and is quite nice. I don't actually think this works in Secret masters. The minions yes, but I don't believe the sentry stones or Megalith are permitted and the fulcrum is unclear.
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Post by Forsaken on Sept 24, 2017 22:33:38 GMT
I have only just gotten Goatvanna and have yet to use her but from what I've seen she struggles a bit in markIII. She was popular last addition because of her infantry bent.
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Post by Forsaken on Sept 24, 2017 22:21:25 GMT
I've recently, and unexpectedly, gained Goatvanna and don't really know what to do with her. I know she wants infantry to carnivore and resurrect, but her lack of damage, defensive or movement buffs seems to leave her lacking. It feels, despite the absence of tharn, like the Wild Hunt could suite her. Suggestions?
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Post by Forsaken on Sept 11, 2017 14:08:52 GMT
As requested. I've been struggling with being clear and succinct discussing different list elements with Grayle but will keep trying to get that together as requested as well. Grayle Assassinations with my Wild Hunt list:I’m going to stick with my list since it’s the one I have experience piloting. It is referenced below. A couple of notes on assassination: - Understand dice math: If you’re time crunched use averages but realize it is very unlikely that you will roll four 7s in a row. You’ll roll a 3,11,5,9 which averages to four 7s. If you need 5’s to hit, you only hit 3 of those attacks instead of all 4 that using the 7 average would indicate. Armor works similarly, at dice off 6 and those rolls, you did 8 damage instead of the “average” 4. Understand how fury will strip out spikes more effectively than focus (at least for murdering a caster). In general, understanding dice math will greatly improve your decision making and reduce tilting from dice.
- Have redundancy. If you are going for an assassination that is an all-in situation, put in every attack you can. Shoot the reeves before engaging in melee. Try for that hard 8 Gallows or hard 8 Reeve Hunter shot. Maybe it adds that last 2 damage you needed to get the job done.
- Knockdown is your friend. It removes or severely nerfs the defense stat,removing half of the dice you’d have to count on to not suck. You have three beasts with two-open hands. Two handed throws or slams are great.
Grayle: -Shadowhorn -Riphorn -Feral Reeves - Full Wolves of Orboros (WoO)- Full + UA Warpborn Skinwalkers – Full +UA Reeve Hunter 3 x War Wolves Morraig 1) Charging beast to caster’s face:
This is the most straight forward kill. You use the 3” movement from the feat to extend threat range and then apply a primaled beast to a caster’s face. Variations: - Gallows: Additional threat extension. This is a random d6” but it could be the little bit you need to make distance. This adds two failure modes: Missing the Gallows and not pulling far enough. - Bulldoze Animus: This can clear out charge lanes that your opponent was expecting to be blocked. You can use Grayle’s charge to move the offending piece and then side step/sprint out of the way if you need to/the situation presents itself or you could spend the 1 fury on Punch Goat. - Judo Goat’s jump: This gives him 15” threat from where he is standing and can go over buildings/walls/models. He’s not particularly powerful when he gets there but it can be the damage you need to get over the edge. - Warp for speed: People forget that this is one of the Feral’s warps and he can get a respectable 12” without any of the extenders. It turns out that Mat 9/Pow 16/17/17 and three additional fury is plenty fine to kill most casters. You don’t always need to warp strength. - Judo Goat throwing the caster closer: Instead of just trying to punch a caster to death you can grab him and chuck him closer. Most casters are then on their butt, really increasing their chance of getting dead. Failure Modes: - Getting out of your control area. Simple, obvious, and something all of us have screwed up at some point. Especially when you’re excited to kill their caster. - “Barely” missing and having Grayle standing up too far and getting murdered right after. 2) Reeve’s CRA and then War Wolves to face.
As has been said before but bears reminding: 24.5” of non-linear threat from War Woves. When Sic’ Em happens they get 3d6 to hit. If all three get there (unlikely), that’s 1 Mat 6+3d6/Pow11+3d6 and two Mat 8+3d6/Pow 13+3d6. The Reeve part is pretty variable depending on how many you have left that can CRA, but it’s not unlikely that you can get 2 5-man shots w/ Morraig close. That’s an extra 2 x Rat 11/Pow 13s that you can dump into a caster from 18” away. Remember they ignore cover and concealment. 3) Wolves of Orboros to the butt: Let’s say I ambush turn 2 and run. That puts my lead guys around 15” into the side of the board. Turn 3 I threat another 11” assuming no extenders. Let’s say turn 3 or 4 I can get my guys there. Maybe I have the UA still, maybe I don’t but that is 3 or more guys charging in at Mat 8,9,10,11 depending on back strikes and Morraig. Pow 9 isn’t great but dice off 6 (Arm 15) with 4 dudes is an average of 16 damage (this is dice math using averages and you should think about how dice spikes and hitting affect these numbers on your own time). That kills a caster not camping anything. Which shouldn’t happen, but is an example. 4) Grayle:
I don’t know if you are aware but he has side step. He can get to weird places and sometimes he can kill stuff. 5) A mix of all of these. The most likely way I pull off an Assassination. This list fights like a wolfpack. A single thing rarely brings down big prey. You want to use a little bit of everything to chip in for the kill. A little simplified but loosely true. This is my favorite of your posts yet. Very informative and highlights strengths and weaknesses. Thanks.
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Post by Forsaken on Sept 8, 2017 12:30:45 GMT
My concern is that because wold watcher (and guardian) are in this CID it will be a long time before they will be considered again. And I'm just simply not happy enough with them. This was exactly my concern with pushing large chunks of 4+ factions through CID in one go. Many models haven't gotten the attention they needed, not just Circles.
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Post by Forsaken on Sept 6, 2017 8:05:56 GMT
So the devs think the watcher is "Fine" just like they said the paladin of the wall was fine last week. I am starting to get pretty flustered at this. Both ret lights in this cycle are really fantastic and have similar weapons and abilities to the watcher just better. They have better utility, better offensive output by miles, and are supported better in faction... Anyone else feeling a bit peeved that they refuse to make changes to the watcher? YES. ffs. The Ret lights are actually a good comparison, I don't know how they can look at the Siren for 8 points, and the Woldwatcher for 8 points, and go 'yep, Watcher is fine.' The siren is actually a good comparison, because it's just...better. in virtually every way. I may just make the comparison on CID forums, for whatever good it does, but: - PS 14/12, Blessed, magical weapons, vs the Woldwatcher's 12/12 magical weapons (admittedly with fertilizer) - RNG 10/Pow 12 gun with RFP, BUT it has RAT 6, and the gun can also kill a second infantry model. - 12/17 vs. 10/17 - Oracular vision vs stone form - Power up vs. construct rules and Fury 2 etc. I feel like they're scared of a recurrence of Wold War 2 and the Mad Dog fiasco, but the situation with the woldwatcher is not at all the same. Clearly we need to do more battle reports showing just how bad it is...stop listing it as yellow when it probably should be orange. I think you may be right. The devs seem to be afraid of changing the woldwatcher to something good. Is it because of Bradigus? Is it because of the fertilizer rule, (which rarely does anything)? Is it because he's a warbeast and not a jack (even though he's got the drawbacks of both beasts and jacks)? It seems pretty clear from what Pagani said in your post on CID they aren't willing to make further changes. Definitely not shield guard. Also, they seem pretty content to leave the wold guardian animus as is. Every single person that mentions it says that animus is crap but not a peep from PP.
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Post by Forsaken on Aug 28, 2017 4:08:58 GMT
Sure, that makes plenty of sense.
Thanks for putting up the battle report.
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Post by Forsaken on Aug 27, 2017 14:49:07 GMT
I'm not too familiar with the structure of spell draught but I am intrigued. It seems like you randomly switch out the spells available to casters so the more you have the more you get. Is that correct?
If so then it seems like the Everblight twins would do well. A combined total of 8 spells (plus animi?) on 2 models that can channel thru each other and have strong non-spell threat combined with anti-magic options (Saeryn has dispell on hit melee). Rhyas would love mobility, def or offense buffs and Saeryn has a decent chance of getting off nukes or board controllers at very long ranges when using her many arcing options.
As for Circle I think Tanith might be the way to go. Despite being fury 6 she does have 5 spells and with her feat she can really lay them down.
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Post by Forsaken on Aug 27, 2017 13:39:01 GMT
Wait so the Stoneshaper becomes better, but then still retains a much lower points cost of 3. Circle players then proceed to complain about free points. So is the solution to make all the Solos Cheaper? I wouldn't mind an Iron Fang Kovnik for 2 points. I wouldn't say the Stoneshaper became better so much as he gained the application to make wolds better. I think if they lost their magic spray it would be fine because they are pretty much a utility piece, not that different from a mechanik. Maybe 3 points is too cheap for them, that's for CID to determine, but bear in mind they can only do one of the 4 * actions in a turn and I don't see many support pieces costing 3+ points each without being significantly better then the Stoneshaper. I'm looking at you Greylord Forgeseer, Arlan Strangeways, and Paingiver Beasthandlers.
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Post by Forsaken on Aug 27, 2017 13:07:05 GMT
Furthermore, many of our "free options" are so limited that taking them is nearly pointless. For example: In our construct warbeast only theme one of our 4 options is a druid wilder who is mostly designed to help with living warbeasts. By the way, she can't be taken in any theme list that uses living beasts.
One of my personal puzzlers is that in our tharn theme the Lord of the Feast, a 6 point small base solo that's essentially a tharn hero, can't be taken free and doesn't count towards the models that can be free because he's not tharn. Also, he doesn't count towards models that get a corpse token, even though he desperately wants a corpse token. Mind you a lot of players think he's not worth taking even if he was free.
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Post by Forsaken on Aug 27, 2017 6:16:30 GMT
I like Brawsome. He seems like a swell guy. Are you sure he hasn't been captured by Pendrake and forced to work for Cygnar though?
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Post by Forsaken on Aug 25, 2017 13:11:43 GMT
Oooh! A whopping 8 points of free models. It seems like a fine list but also outlines well a glaring Circle theme issue.
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Post by Forsaken on Aug 24, 2017 6:38:03 GMT
There are a couple things that can be used against most Circle builds but it usually makes a big difference who you face.
One thing to consider, much like Legion, Circle doesn't usually take a hit well. We often rely on alpha-strikes, terrain and high def (idealy buffed). Some builds also lean heavily on board control. Your ambushing units can force your opponent into tight spots and beasts like the neraph will be able to push around/punish our high def units and maybe blunt our alphas.
What do you usually run?
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Post by Forsaken on Aug 24, 2017 4:44:21 GMT
Thanks. Couple other questions: Do you find the stealth aspect of his feat to be a reliable counter to gunlines? Also, the Death Wolves seem like an excellent pairing with Grayle, have you found that?
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