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Post by ninjastars on Dec 11, 2017 17:44:01 GMT
I love doomshaper 1,but unfortunately he’s not one of the best casters in our stable. He’s similar to madrak3 where he is more of a toolbox caster. He doesn’t come with a specific game plan, instead he has a variety of tools, one or two of which will be useful in any given game.
In general he’s good into battle group heavy lists, especially hordes, where stranglehold, rampager, Amd his feat allow him to hobble enemy models. He also does well into upkeepcasters, spell asassinss, and beat stick casters like Caine Amd the butcher, because on his feat turn they can’t use fury safely.
He has recently gotten a few new toys to play with that may make him more competitive than he has been in the past. The ability to channel with mulg now allows him to use rampager and stranglehold without risking himself.
He also has one of my favorite interactions in the game with rok, where you can kil something with rok, goad him forward, then have rok beserk attack into another model, this works really well into cav lists. I’ve had rok wine multiple units using this trick
If I where to try and come up with a generic doomshaper list, it’d probbaly look like this:
War Room Army
Trollblood - Doomshaper
Theme: The Power of Dhunia 2 / 2 Free Cards 74 / 75 Army
Hoarluk Doomshaper, Shaman of the Gnarls - WB: +29 - Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0 - Mulg the Ancient - PC: 22 (Battlegroup Points Used: 22) - Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Earthborn Dire Troll - PC: 14 - Troll Axer - PC: 10 - Storm Troll - PC: 9
Troll Whelps - 5 Whelps: 0
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 3 Grunts: 6 - Stone Scribe Elder - PC: 3 Dhunian Knot - Leader & 2 Grunts: 6 Trollkin Runeshapers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 9 Trollkin Runeshapers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 9
The idea being you advance and cover your advance by having doomshaper stranglehold key models, or rampage something if your lucky, then feat and kill stuff. I usually don’t bring the knot these days but I would with doomie because the rerolls make let you skip boostes with doomie and fish for crits with mulg.
If it was me, I’d run this:
War Room Army
Trollblood - Doomshaper (copy)
Theme: Storm of the North 1 / 1 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Hoarluk Doomshaper, Shaman of the Gnarls - WB: +29 - Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0 - Mulg the Ancient - PC: 22 (Battlegroup Points Used: 22) - Troll Axer - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Rök - PC: 19 - Dire Troll Brawler - PC: 16
Troll Whelps - 5 Whelps: 4
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 3 Grunts: 6 - Northkin Elder - PC: 3 Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7 Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7 Northkin Bear Handler & Battle Bears - Bear Handler & 2 Battle Bears: 10
But I don’t think it’s actually good. I’m just addicted to the rush of surfing rok through units. It’s one of my favorite things in the game.
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Post by ninjastars on Dec 11, 2017 1:56:51 GMT
I actually like Ragnar in storm
Theme: Storm of the North 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Ragnor Skysplitter, the Runemaster - WB: +30 - Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0 - Rök - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19) - Dire Troll Brawler - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
Fell Caller Hero - PC: 0 Trollkin Champion Hero - PC: 5 Troll Whelps - 5 Whelps: 4
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 3 Grunts: 6 - Northkin Elder - PC: 3 Trollkin Long Riders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Trollkin Champions - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Skaldi Bonehammer - PC: 0 Trollkin Champions - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16
This way you get the new elder bonus, and Ragnar has always been fury starved, so that extra fury is nice. With rock Amd the brawler as a battle group you don’t really need rage, which is always good.
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Post by ninjastars on Oct 24, 2017 4:57:09 GMT
They’re not. Tuffaloes do the same job much better.
And tuffaloes don’t really kill jacks that well, I use them to jam them up and slam them back, then champs and the sons take them out.
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Post by ninjastars on Oct 22, 2017 15:51:18 GMT
Another good trick with madrak1 and the champ hero is with tactician, you get to go back to the mk2 days of walking your champ through a unit of champs, threshering to clear them up, then charging the champs deeper in.
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Post by ninjastars on Aug 19, 2017 11:58:05 GMT
Feels to me like the only really strong thing that you WANT to take in KC is the War Wagon. It is a great model and it grants you free points. Then you want the stone of course, so that is 40+ points right there. If you are not using the WW (or one at the very least) it feels like you are either playing lots of beasts (so go PoD and be done with it) or you are playing more shooty infantry than is healthy. Maybe this list is the War Wagon list and not much more... It's war wagon lists and double bomber lists. You don't remember the grim2/calandra double bomber lists from mk2? Those were good days. I missed them a little and now they're back. Enjoy playing your sons of the north and be happy you have the option to blow your opponent off the board with a grim2 feat when the spirit moves you.
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Post by ninjastars on Aug 19, 2017 4:41:09 GMT
I think the issue with trying to focus on Trollkin shooting is that we just don't have the tools to really build anything around it. Aside from a few feats, we have no rat fixing (except Dozer and now lookouts), we definitely don't have the range on a vast majority of our shooting, we don't have a way to increase ranged damage output (again aside from a feat or Calamity/Mortality), and a whole host of other problems. It's all stuff that works to complement our melee game, but can't stand on its own I think. We're not Cygnar. When I try to write KC lists, I find I'm just kinda looking at it wondering what to fill with, as Big Fat Troll pointed out, a bunch of our key backbone pieces just aren't there. No rat fixer. except the grissels, madrak3, the grims, horgle, calandra, and kolgrima, who are coincidentally the casters I said would work well with the theme no way to increase ranged damage output except...grissel1, madrak3, the grim2, horgle calandra and kolgrima, the casters who work well with the theme,
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Post by ninjastars on Aug 19, 2017 2:47:53 GMT
Horgle's synergies are better in SOTN and it helps him with 2 of his 3 upkeeps, which he really needs. I tried Kolgrima in KC. It was bad, but to be fair, I think the last-week changes to her did help that. Madrak 3 and the Grims can run some of the most effective builds, but they can do better in SOTN and POD, respectively. I'm not saying the whole theme is completely useless. Band of Heroes isn't, and I still like it at least in principle. That theme will be helped by changes to Champs and Long Riders. It is entirely possible that Kriel Company will be helped by any number of things down the road. What I'm saying is that even after as much frustration as I ever had building lists in Band, KC quickly over took it on that tally despite a huge head start. Will there be builds that do use it? Sure. I even considered playing it next weekend. It's not exactly the worst theme in the game but on the whole, it doesn't begin to compare to either POD or SOTN. This is fair. I think it's possible to build good lists in KC, but it's easier to build good lists in the other themes, and the power ceiling on them is a little higher. In the end trolls are more of a melee/combined arms faction, and the other themes do a better job of supporting that base play style. The contribution of KC is when you get bored of that or want to surprise people, now you can throw together a grim2 list and just blow people off the table with lots of guns. KC lets us do that, and it's a good option to have.
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Post by ninjastars on Aug 19, 2017 1:45:16 GMT
I don't think it's very good at all, to be honest. I defended it in the CID because I thought that we would get another crack at it, that they might add a couple more options, and that some upcoming changes to models like the Pyre Troll might help. None of those things came to pass, and in retrospect, I made a mistake. I don't think its bad, I think its niche. its only good with certain casters. The grims, Madrak3, Horgle, kolgrima when she's released are all very strong with this theme. I think part of the problem is we're not used to considering these casters or these types of armies anymore. we've been beast bricking it for so long the idea of bringing a grim shooting army just isn't on the radar. once we start playing around with it i think we'll find its surprisingly effective.
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Post by ninjastars on Aug 18, 2017 21:07:38 GMT
I posted this in the horgle thread but I've continued to play it and it's done really well. I've managed to tilt a number of people with it:
War Room Army
Trollblood - Horgle kc mk
Horgle, the Anvil - WB: +29 - Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0 - Mountain King - PC: 36 (Battlegroup Points Used: 29) - Slag Troll - PC: 10
War Wagon - PC: 16
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 3 Grunts: 6 Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7 Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7 Trollkin Sluggers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 10 Trollkin Sluggers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 10 Thumper Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0
THEME: Kriel Company
i generally agree with trollocks comments above, but I think this list gets around a lot of the problems, everything in the list is generally good at dealing with both armor and infantry, and it offers a really nasty armor skew. I sort of treat the battle engine as if it was a unit of fennblades, only it's arm 23, 38 boxes, and four points cheaper.
its true that yo only get 2 free solos, but I think what you have performs well enough that you dint have to worry about the points deficite.
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Post by ninjastars on Aug 11, 2017 16:50:19 GMT
star crossed really isn't as amazing as it looks. it doesnt work very well on ranged armies and folds to a mat fixer.
Don't get me wrong, its a good spell, but part of the problem is people just say "star crossed is amazing!" and leave it at that. they treat it like its this silver bullet that just wins games, and that's not what it is. Its really strong into some matchups and weak into others.
It reminds me of a game i had the other day. i was playing into a Protectorate list that relied on drifting redeemer blasts to kill infantry. I was playing horgle so i had solid ground up, totally neutering his game plan. after the game he came up to me and said "god, solid ground is amazing, its way too good." then a cygnar player wandered up and said "eh, its alright i guess."
Star crossed is like that. anyone playing a lot of mat 6 models is going to think its totally unfair, but if you run into someone playing sloan or skarre or makeda 1, they're not going to think its a big deal. its a good spell but its still matchup dependent.
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Post by ninjastars on Aug 11, 2017 13:54:38 GMT
Calandra is the best troll caster that doesn't do well. On paper she is unbelievable. Star crossed is an incredible spell, she has a control spell that Haley players can respect, a knockdown assassination almost as good as grissels and a dogganm damage/accuracy buff feat, in trolls!
But on the table, it never quite works out. Star crossed is great, but you always end up running into o shooting army or some jerk with carnage or dark guidance who gets around it. Befuddle is nice, but you have to get too far forward to use it. Her knockdown assassination is good, but you're always just 2 inches short, that 2 inches that grissel has on her.
Personally I'm interested to see if new mulg changes things up. Being able to arc befuddle and misfortune may finally give her the game she was missing.
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Post by ninjastars on Aug 11, 2017 2:57:59 GMT
Got in a couple of games tuesday with this list. Horgle free runebearer MK Slag War Wagon Min stonew Whelps Sluggers min burrowers free thumper
First game vs vyros 2 and a bunch of griffons, Imperatus and phoenix
burrowers start burrowed. I go first and run up, fire eaters in half moon around war wagon on left, mk on right, horgle in the middle, sluggers behind. He jams with griffons. next turn i use chain attack to light the fire eaters and have them set pretty much everything on fire, then i use the war wagon to engage both heavies and put the mk behind it. the war wagon took a few free strikes but it gives no shits because of inviolable resolve. next turn he puts two griffons and both heavies into the war wagon under synergy and kills it. my turn i feat and charge the mk into the hole left by the war wagon, killing everything. he tries a last ditch attempt on horgle with vyros, but i put IR on horgle so he doesnt have the dice. next turn mk headbutts vyros and eats him
Second game vs Reznik2, purgation jack and 2 other heavies, and a bunch of redeemers. Turn 1 i run up, same formation except fire eaters on the right with the mk this time. he runs everything forward, all the heaies opposite the mk. redeemers fire at my infantry but cant hurt anything due to solid ground. next turn i don't see good angles for the fire eaters due to terrain, so i run them to the right flank and run the IR war wagon diagonal across the board to engange all his jacks, with the mk directly behind it. I forget about puragation and he kills the war wagon with purgation jack(Is that scourge? I think so), all his redeemers and another heavy. and gets the third on the mk, taking down half its health. next turn i feat, bulldoze the heavy on the mk back into the other two, and kill his heavies, slag runs up behind the mk. next turn he fires everything at the mk and barely just kills it, but reznik is left exposed on no fury, and i charge him with the slag for an erosion fueled assassination.
The point of this story is that this list if great. IR battle engine takes two or three heavies to kill. if it dies you have two or three heavies in a delightful half moon for your mk to kill, if it lives, you have an arm 23 war wagon. these games weren't even ideal because the fire eater's alpha was stymied by terrain. Its like a double colossal list, except one of the collossals costs less than a unit of fennblades so you have room for other stuff. its a good mix of infantry and armor killing, has the potential to make burrowers useful, and is all around hilarious.
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Post by ninjastars on Aug 2, 2017 19:46:19 GMT
i'm not sure if she could, I was just thinking champs under star crossed or solid ground are only getting hit about 30% of the time by banes, 20% if you kill tartarus. Its still probably a tough match, but it seems better than bringing stuff that needs to charge into lists that stop charges.
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Post by ninjastars on Aug 2, 2017 15:24:07 GMT
I'm sort of missing how this will work. The war wagon, mk and fire eaters are only good if they can charge, and both gaspy and the coven prevent that from happening. And with parasite and curse of shadows, those casters don't have a problem taking huge heavily armored bases off the board. I see how the abilities those models bring are good vs dark host, but how do you use them vs a cloud wall or the witch covens feat?
ive only just started thinking about this, but it seems like calandra or the new madrak1 might be a good option. Banes can crack armor like nobody's business, but they're pretty much stuck at mat 6-7. You throw a defense skew at them and you have a chance to attrition them down.
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Post by ninjastars on Jul 30, 2017 16:09:14 GMT
I've got a big regional tournament coming up on Labor Day, and I won't be able to practice against ghost fleet. Does anyone have any ideas for a list I could bring? I was trying to stick to adr because this is going to be masters format, so I was thinking either calandra or grissel2 with band of heroes. however, if there's some other caster that would give me a clear advantage, I'd forgo adr for that.
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