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Post by elricaltovilla on Oct 15, 2017 12:26:30 GMT
So the Champ Hero is like a mini Axer without the main reason to take an Axer (rush). But he does give retaliatory strike to our Champs. With them getting Sanguine Bond, it's now a good bit easier for them to survive to deliver their retaliatory strike. Has anybody tried using the Champ Hero with the CID buffed Champs?
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Oct 15, 2017 14:12:22 GMT
Yes, and it does help. At this point, if I have Champs and a defensive feat I really want to get him into the mix as well.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Oct 15, 2017 14:39:12 GMT
Yes, and it does help. At this point, if I have Champs and a defensive feat I really want to get him into the mix as well. That's good to know. I'm trying to build a BoH list and am considering adding a champ hero. Of course it kind of has to wait until the CID stuff goes through. |
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Post by Trollock on Oct 15, 2017 18:14:04 GMT
When building a BoH list, the first solo you add is a Fell Caller. Then it will (often) be a Runebearer. If you have a third free solo, then you could consider a Champ Hero, assuming you have champions... and probably something to make them not die... There are certainly lists he goes in to, but he is not an auto include by any means. not even if you have champions imo...
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513 
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Post by joedj on Oct 15, 2017 19:01:23 GMT
If adding a Champ Hero gave 8 wounds back to Champs... (in BoH Theme* only of course).
Otherwise, I find the addition of 2x Fell Callers provides a more beneficial proactive (vs reactive 'retaliatory) ability(s) to the multiple units of spread out Fenns.
*Precedence = the Gatorman enabling Theme for Minions.
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Post by Trollock on Oct 15, 2017 20:41:19 GMT
If adding a Champ Hero gave 8 wounds back to Champs... (in BoH Theme* only of course). Otherwise, I find the addition of 2x Fell Callers provides a more beneficial proactive (vs reactive 'retaliatory) ability(s) to the multiple units of spread out Fenns. *Precedence = the Gatorman enabling Theme for Minions. You do not like the CID champions? They seem amazing now, even with 5 wounds... |
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Oct 15, 2017 23:25:47 GMT
If adding a Champ Hero gave 8 wounds back to Champs... (in BoH Theme* only of course). Otherwise, I find the addition of 2x Fell Callers provides a more beneficial proactive (vs reactive 'retaliatory) ability(s) to the multiple units of spread out Fenns. *Precedence = the Gatorman enabling Theme for Minions. You do not like the CID champions? They seem amazing now, even with 5 wounds... I don't know what the math has to say but I still feel like it would have been better to simply give them the 8 hit points again. Sanguine Bond does help, especially with Ret Strikes, but once again, it's another added complication to a faction that is already too hard to play. |
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Oct 16, 2017 22:18:56 GMT
The CID Champs still struggle from suuuper low threat. Even under NuStone Aura they cap out at 10". Sangine bond helps you deliver them versus poke damage on guns but if their prey is faster you're in big trouble.
Access to Lanyssa might be a heck of a boon here.
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Post by grabsnikk on Oct 16, 2017 23:29:59 GMT
The CID Champs still struggle from suuuper low threat. Even under NuStone Aura they cap out at 10". Sangine bond helps you deliver them versus poke damage on guns but if their prey is faster you're in big trouble. Access to Lanyssa might be a heck of a boon here. To be fair, champs are not an alpha strike unit, they are the second wave. So the lower threat range isn't that much of an issue. |
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Post by pyrrhicvictory on Oct 16, 2017 23:51:31 GMT
The CID Champs still struggle from suuuper low threat. Even under NuStone Aura they cap out at 10". Sangine bond helps you deliver them versus poke damage on guns but if their prey is faster you're in big trouble. Access to Lanyssa might be a heck of a boon here. To be fair, champs are not an alpha strike unit, they are the second wave. So the lower threat range isn't that much of an issue. It's a problem when you can't get in range to be an effective second wave when you go second. They are medium bases without reach. Your opponent will capitalize on this. |
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Post by scottmcd on Oct 17, 2017 3:42:09 GMT
I really like the CID Champs with a champ hero and Calandra. Def 14 is hard to hit under star crossed and the retaliatory strike from Skaldi can take out an aspect on many beast.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 17, 2017 11:42:41 GMT
The CID Champs still struggle from suuuper low threat. Even under NuStone Aura they cap out at 10". Sangine bond helps you deliver them versus poke damage on guns but if their prey is faster you're in big trouble. Access to Lanyssa might be a heck of a boon here. Jamming with a unit like Long Riders or fens early on and forcing your opponent to play forward on scenario is what delivers champs. Once they get stuck in they take a Heavy to remove reliably (especially if they are def16 thanks to madrack1/borka1) and in Storm of the North they hit at P+S 14 WM which is crazy good. |
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Post by robbleyourworld on Oct 17, 2017 15:47:30 GMT
The champ hero is a much maligned model in my discussions of trollbloods (guys in my meta like to bring it up if they want to see a salty troll rant). His 1" melee makes thresher probably less reliably useful than 2 initials and retaliatory strike is bizarre on a unit that seems built on not getting hit. Prior to the CID changes my grump with retaliatory strike was that you're relying on tough and being base to base to even get to make the attack as the things used to kill champs either don't allow retaliatory strikes (range) or one shot them (beasts/jacks). During the CID cycle I did try using the Champ hero after sanguine bond was added and retaliatory strike actually came into play albeit to a limited sense as people still just shot the champs or used 2" melee ranges to stay away.
While I'm still on the fence about Sanguine Bond I don't think it fixes the problem of the champion hero although it does move him up from being an overpriced melee solo with a nearly useless buff to an overpriced melee solo with a plausibly useful buff.
As it stands I'd probably only take him after a fell caller, runebearer, and stone scribe. In my lists he's battling with a second fell caller for inclusion which I consider to be an all around more useful solo with nearly identical damage output. He should have a 2" melee range and I wish he had a more reliably useful buff like defensive strike. I'll have to see how he is though with more games once the changes are released in their final form.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Oct 17, 2017 16:37:12 GMT
Robble, get out of my head! That's exactly my experience up until CID. I'd prefer the mark ii guy back, but more reasonably maybe he could have 2" reach out a second star attack that lets him punch twice, which already exists in the game. I'm going to stop wishing now, even though I have other ideas. They'll just have to wait until he actually gets in a CID.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Oct 21, 2017 16:43:30 GMT
The CID Champs still struggle from suuuper low threat. Even under NuStone Aura they cap out at 10". Sangine bond helps you deliver them versus poke damage on guns but if their prey is faster you're in big trouble. Access to Lanyssa might be a heck of a boon here. Jamming with a unit like Long Riders or fens early on and forcing your opponent to play forward on scenario is what delivers champs. Once they get stuck in they take a Heavy to remove reliably (especially if they are def16 thanks to madrack1/borka1) and in Storm of the North they hit at P+S 14 WM which is crazy good. In my experiences, premeasuring allows opposing forward play while remaining outside of a non-SPD buff Champion charge, three other TB players in venue, and I don't allow them the charge when playing against them. Champions stuck-in are not particularly effective at free-ing themselves by destroying whatever engages them (example Centratii w/ buff or ARM 20 warjacks). Heavy warjacks in particular are not in short supply, nor are opposing Weaponmasters, to take on the Champions, though the high DEF does mean I would be 'forcing' the opponent to put more Focus into that 'jack(s) to eliminate the Champs. Retaliatory Strike is ok, but using Death Clock time to scratch the paint of heavy warjacks is sorta a trap. The SotN KSB-Northkin Elder damage buff to Champs I believe takes them to that next level for damaging. 4.5 damage to a Khador warjack per attack when stuck-in means they have a chance in heck of actually winning the 'trade' in a reasonable time. I will be testing this once the SotN pieces are all available, and after I get off my new Grim1/Glacier King kick!  |
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