gordo
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Post by gordo on Oct 12, 2017 16:54:56 GMT
I think Craelix should be allowed in Ravens of War as well. Fast, light skirmishing army? He definitely fits. With its limited beast selection, his Weaken isn't likely to be breaking any backs either. He does kind of compete with Deathstalkers, but their cost difference plus stealth plus Strider synergy I think would still give them a place. Though the complaints regarding his inability to sac-pawn in that theme would go on for days...
Which makes me wonder: would Nyss Archers fit in such an army? Both thematically and mechanically.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Oct 12, 2017 15:17:15 GMT
I've always felt the biggest problem with the Carnivean chassis is their point cost is bloated with special rules that are niche in application and we've no way to force their utility. We've no way to make or even place terrain to gaurantee our Pathfinder is relevant, and Eyeless Sight on the Carnivean and Scythean is almost never useful. The Ravagore, a primarily ranged beast, is bloated with THREE melee attacks he rarely gets to use (either because he is shot off the table with his low defenses or never makes it to melee). Even when he does get to use them, they are pillow-fisted. To me, the key to making the Ravagore useful while also simultaneously giving him synergy with the rest of the faction would be to give his AoE the "Smoke" feature (it becomes a cloud effect). Or Crater. Actually, if you make this a "choose one ammo" feature (Scather, Crater, or Smoke), it keeps him useful in nearly any list. Also, giving him Quick Work or Virtuouso would go a long way to making his melee attacks come into play.
If the Carnivean is supposed to be our brick, he ought to have a decent way to get his animus up without being a huge drain on our fury management. I'd say some ability that lets him use his animus for free when running (but not charging) would help a lot. That way in order to put it up, we would still have to sacrifice some fury and offensive capability, but we'd also be able to get him up the field without over taxing all our fury management.
If the Scythean is supposed to be our infantry murder machine, he needs some way to push deep into their ranks to make his multiple attacks or thresher come into play. Bulldoze would go a long way to this, and also further increase his utility as an assassination tool.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Oct 4, 2017 14:37:43 GMT
I was just having this conversation in my LGS. I am one of those people that has left the faction, mostly out of frustration. I find that even mildly effective lists are very limited. Everything we do it feels like someone else does better. It feels like our "role" is to be a glass cannon, assassination engine, as every other play style (piece trading, attrition, gun-line, box spam, etc), another faction does much better. So there's only one goal, which is to assassinate the enemy caster. And that just isn't the game I enjoy, especially when it feels like gunlines and Circle do it better without as much risk.
The themes only exasperate this issue. Our key pieces should be: Forsaken, Shepherds, Hellmouth, Seraph, Nagah. Yet none of our themes allow for all these in the same list. So either play out of theme and play at an even greater disadvantage from points, or play without the faction defining power pieces that make you competitive. Making any list just feels frustrating, as I realize I just don't have the points to include what I have to in order to be a functional army. Switching to Skorne just opened my eyes to what I was missing, where I have access to both effective and non-handicapped themes.
I get that what Legion has things they do well, but they just aren't what I enjoyed about the faction in Mk2. And yeah, we are far from the bottom of the ladder: Minions and Trolls probably have it much worse. Fyannacles is a great list. The Throne is great into Ghost Fleet. But what I enjoyed about the faction, what made it distinct and strong before, just doesn't feel the same anymore, and the compensation I got for these changes (Hellmouths, boosted Swordsmen, etc) aren't accessible due to theme restrictions.
And then gunlines happened, for which we have no non-caster specific solutions for, other than to hope for a kind table layout.
To be fair, my favorite casters from Mk2 were Vayl1 and Thagrosh2... Who both have pretty severe issues at the moment, so this might be coloring my experiences severely (though I've played Fyanna2 and Abby2 quite a bit since Mk3).
TLDR: Yes, I think it has.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Oct 2, 2017 18:30:51 GMT
As I understand this ability, when a friendly living faction warrior model is killed in his control area, I can pick ANY other model that has the Soul Taker ability to gain its soul token, correct? So an Immortal on one side of the table gets killed, Extoller Soulward on other side of the table, nowhere near the model that died, can get its Soul token.
Is this how it is supposed to work?
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 15, 2017 14:00:56 GMT
I'm off the opinion a Vayl1 list should kind of operate like it has two feats: The first is Cat n Mouse. You throw some long range stuff like Angelius/Neraph/Raptors into them and have it run away/jam further to avoid a counter strike. The enemy approaches again, hopefully unable to engage thanks to the jamming models you left between you and your main force. Then you move up with Vayl herself and cast Incite which is basically a very short range mini-feat in itself. Using both her feat and Incite is too dangerous/difficult since Vayl can't run away anymore.
To this end, I've been toying with a Ravens theme list: War Room Army
Legion of Everblight - Vayl Ravens
Theme: Ravens of War 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Arcane Wonder - Steamroller Objective
Vayl, Disciple of Everblight - WB: +27 - Angelius - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Naga Nightlurker - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Angelius - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Seraph - PC: 14
Grotesque Assassin - PC: 0 Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion - PC: 6 The Forsaken - PC: 0
Strider Blightblades - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Grotesque Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 12 Blighted Nyss Raptors - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18
THEME: Ravens of War ---
It should jam like nobody's business with the speed of everything, and hopefully avoid much meaningful reprisal. Then when they finally get close enough to engage, you deliver hopefully what is the final blow with Vayls Incite. The trick is to make sure you have models in the first wave that don't care about having Incite to work. Hence Angels and Raptors.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 8, 2017 18:32:54 GMT
I think on its face, Oracles seems broken because of how many points of free models you can get. And I think in perhaps another faction, it would be broken. But the only really viable way to run "beast heavy" in Legion is this theme, as otherwise all our over-priced beasts and the support required to run more than a couple simply costs too much. The only time I think the complaints against it are potentially legitimate is when it is combined with Fyanna... Who has plenty of very viable counters all by her lonesome. But if you really want to "balance" Oracles, then you simply need to address Fyanna.
It would be neat if the theme did more to encourage actually using our spell-casting models though. Apparition is great on Spawning Vessel, Hex Hunters, and BFS, but it caps out at one. So no one will ever run more than unit, and even then... doing so basically requires that we throw away a free Sorceress, who is objectively better than a full unit of Hex Hunters anyway. So I'd say if you wanted to do this, consider additional benefits for running more infantry. Perhaps for every 25 points of infantry in the list, some beast gets Advance Deployment or something.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
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Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 7, 2017 15:28:29 GMT
I always thought that the defining characteristic of Nephilim should be their relative intelligence compared to beasts and their ability work in coordination with troops. To that end, I would see a "leader Neph" that granted Neph within command range "gang with friendly faction warrior models" (flank feels like it would be too strong). This one release alone would make the entire Children of the Dragon theme actually work.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
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Post by gordo on May 3, 2017 17:18:14 GMT
I've had mild success with this theme using Thag1, Swordsmen, Hex Hunters, Typhon, 2 * Soldiers, 1 Bloodseer. It has massive access to precision strike and Unyielding + Death Shroud helps the Nephilim survive while maintaining their maneuverability. The problem I find is that with no access to grievous wounds and only one heavy capable of hurting stuff... It suffers a lot vs Hordes. He's Hunters Shadowbind + Precision Strike works pretty well though. I find it's biggest issue is blast damage and electro leaps.
My biggest concern with it is that Nephilim just aren't very "turned up" by it. It turns up their attrition, but you can run much better attrition lists. The only reason I can see use it over Oracles is access to Swordsmen... But there's not much synergy between them and Nephilim.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 27, 2017 18:25:30 GMT
But there is one thing we are over-looking: It boosts assasinations. There's a distinct problem with your proposal: Freezer only works at 2", andif you're charging something at the max threat of 12" with the Throne, the things that didn't die are 4" away and can happily walk away from or around it. Worse, they're far enough away to charge so if it's something that can reasonably kill the Throne in an activation, you're kind of hosed anyways. If it's some kind of cheap/flimsy screen maybe there's some merit but I'm not sure. Agreed. This is why I said it needed Pull. But I hadn't much considered the idea of "well, what if there is no models near the targets that you want to make Stationary that it can kill to trigger Necrophage?" Still, I think this does give us a hint into what they were really thinking of with it: a tarpit designed to enable assassinations. But it's too expensive for a tarpit and hasn't got the tools for an assassination.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 27, 2017 16:17:11 GMT
So I always felt the way that the Throne should work is to really capitalize on its LoS blocking big base. With lots of flying heavy beasts, it could be used to screen them on the way in, and then they could charge over it. For it to do this it would need to be able to keep-up (at Speed 5 and with no Slip-streaming, this isn't really going to work, but I suppose it could screen our Carni-chassi). It would also need to be fairly durable vs shooting... which it is a bit, though I don't think sufficiently enough, especially compared to our similarly costed options.
As it stands now, it doesn't extend threat ranges, it doesn't protect anything, it doesn't threaten anything with high armor or high defense. It's decent at threshing infantry, but not really much better than our other anti-infantry options. It's durable, but not really much more so than a Carnivean (just what.. 6 boxes?). It's a bit cheaper by 2 points, but it gives up boosting, assault, and can't be slip-streamed. Carnivean punishes other heavies charging it with Spiny Growth fairly well, while Freezer gives us big accuracy buffs instead of extra damage. But accuracy has never really felt like Legion's issue: Shadow-bind from Hex Hunters, Flare from Seraphs, many many feats and spells that boost it, Ice Cages on the ubiquitous BFS...
But there is one thing we are over-looking: It boosts assasinations.
Charging any infantry reliably at 12" away, it kills some and then uses Freezer. Enemy models have to risk free strikes from it or they become Stationary, which allows all our flying bests to leap frog over them without fear of free strikes (especially now that it has a normal front arc)
I think for it to be worth this function, it needs to be cheaper and probably have "pull" on its tentacles. Right now you lose so much just to put it into your list, yet because it is sub-par at anything offensive compared to our other options, it has to be worth being the sacrificial lamb it is meant to be, or be better at tanking. I think dropping it to 15 points and giving it Pull would make it perform this function as expected. Or make it better at tanking melee than our other similarly costed options.
I could see using it in either Thags at the moment because of their ability to boost its armor and how it blocks LoS to them, but that's really about it.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 10, 2017 16:09:36 GMT
By my strict reading of the rules... I think a beast that was Feralgeisted could still be brought back to play by Thagrosh's feat once the Feralgeisted version is also killed. Can anyone confirm?
Ignoring that, the Feralgeist seems like a great way to add even more attrition to this list.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Apr 3, 2017 17:18:34 GMT
I had this same thought the other night (while drunk/drinking). The stream of consciousness was this: <First glass of St Bernardus 12 (a 10% abv Belgian quadrupel, for the uninitiated)> 1. Putting out theme list sells models. They encourage using specific models, multiples of specific models, in ways and quantities that they were not being used before. If the theme lists are non-abusive, interesting, and result in shaking up the meta, this is a "good thing". 2. If point 1 is true, especially on the idea that (at least part) of the motivation for theme lists is financial, then putting out more and more theme lists will be the order of the day. Writing rules, especially with the all digital release format, has little development cost but still sells more models. <Second glass of St Bernardus 12> 3. If points 1 and 2 are true, then Legion certainly has more themes on the horizon! <Shot of Bulleit to celebrate> 4. Speculation begins... what theme lists are we likely to see? And more importantly, how awesomely over-powered will they be? Much deliberation here. <Third glass of St Bernardus 12> 5. You only have to look to Cygnar to realize that PP certainly aren't afraid to put out powerful theme lists that do not restrict armies from taking all of the models they would normally anyway. So we began to list the crutch models for Legion: Forsaken, Hellmouth, probably Seraphs. Realizing Hellmouth has yet to be available to any theme list, I posited that the next theme list would be likely include them. Probably some kind of tentacle/mutation/abomination theme list. What other models would such a list have? <Decadent salted pork-product and burger consumed messily, fourth glass of St Bernardus 12 ordered> 6. Well, the Throne has tentacles, and no one ever buys them because they aren't any good... wait a second, aren't they under CID? Didn't I post in that thread? Do I drink too much? <Too full for more beer, I moved onto the hard-liquor phase of the evening with a Jack & Coke> 7. Checking out that thread on my phone, I discover I actually started that thread. Ok, so they are going to put out new rules for the Battle Engine... and all the other Battle Engines to boot... wouldn't be at all surprised if they then put out some kind of theme lists for everyone pushing the new Battle Engine designs. <Mid-way through Oujia: The Origin of Evil, terrified by little girls crawling on the ceiling, my thoughts turned to other scary things, while enjoying my second and then third Jack & Coke> 8. Oh firetruck me! The Battle Engine and the Hellmouth look really freaking similar. What if the Hellmouth is like the immature form of a Battle Engine? It eats and gestates underground, and then bursts forth in majestic glory. For Vayl to ride on. Why isn't Vayl riding on a Throne? Wait, Vayl 3... 9. Why am I in bed? Who put my pants back on? Is there any Jack left?
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 27, 2017 17:46:25 GMT
I don't ever see her in any lists, I'm curious to see what (if any) collective wisdom people have to share about her. I think her ability to run away after melee should be able to be used to help us "cheat" piece-trades, which as far as I can tell, should be a Legion strength given all of our movement options.
Has anyone had much success with her? I've not seen her in any tournament lists.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 22, 2017 18:30:11 GMT
Personally I'm hoping that the Throne comes with some sort of anti-gunline tech. Be it either a magic ability from the Sorceress perched on top or some kind of Protective Aura like ability. We really suffer against guns this edition and large scale changes to the Throne gives PP a chance to do something about this fairly crippling weakness that we've been suffering from since the start of the edition. Well, the Cryx one does this for Undead. I'd be surprised if we got a direct (or near direct) copy. But yes, I see your point. I think it's large base size does something for that on its own, but it would be nice to have something a bit less finicky to use. Perhaps if it had Blood Mist on its tentacles, so that it could kill things to make clouds? I've always felt that Eyeless Sight was pretty damn hard to actually use effectively in this edition.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 22, 2017 18:25:08 GMT
Wait, can Vayl2 cast all her battlegroup's animi for free now during her feat?
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