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Post by copperflame on Jun 8, 2017 15:04:41 GMT
Allow me to start off by stating that this is just armchair theory crafting. This is for fun.
After following the thread in General on the current state of Themes, I have quite a bit of focus on OoA. Not that too much credence should be given but it did spark some questions for me. was Oracles of Annihilation meant to be a 'magic focused' theme? If so, did OoA achieve that?
That lead me to this fun thread. What would you change to make Oracles of Annihilation achieve a 'magic' theme?
But it is my opinion that OoA is very valuable to Legion currently. Therefore, whatever change to OoA may need to be balanced with some form of buff to compensate (or maybe not). Some ideas I had were to lower the PC of Hellion down to 4 and/or lower the PC cost of Carnivean-chassie warbeasts by 1?
So... I'm interested to hear what would suggest? 1) How would you change OoA to be more magic themed? 2) What would you buff (if anything) to compensate?
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 8, 2017 15:17:35 GMT
1 - change the point count to be based on units/solos/battle engine.
2 - compensate with an entirely beast focused theme list with entirely different but meaningful benefits.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 8, 2017 15:25:05 GMT
1 - change the point count to be based on units/solos/battle engine. 2 - compensate with an entirely beast focused theme list with entirely different but meaningful benefits. We would need a lot more units with magic to make a theme force around taking a bunch of warrior models in oracles.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 8, 2017 15:28:10 GMT
1 - change the point count to be based on units/solos/battle engine. 2 - compensate with an entirely beast focused theme list with entirely different but meaningful benefits. We would need a lot more units with magic to make a theme force around taking a bunch of warrior models in oracles. Yeah, that's what was supposed to happen with theme forces. Like what Cygnar is getting with Trenchers. If they'd get off their favorite-child bias long enough we'd have the models to fill out such a list and the list would function as intended. But the didn't so we don't. Just wait a few years like everyone but Cygnar. [yea I'm ticked off. sorry]
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Post by mallios on Jun 8, 2017 15:50:09 GMT
According to the fluff, this theme is more of an occupying force used to research the magics found in conquered areas. To me, it makes sense to have a bunch of beasts, pots, and magic users if that's your mission.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 8, 2017 15:54:46 GMT
We would need a lot more units with magic to make a theme force around taking a bunch of warrior models in oracles. Yeah, that's what was supposed to happen with theme forces. Like what Cygnar is getting with Trenchers. If they'd get off their favorite-child bias long enough we'd have the models to fill out such a list and the list would function as intended. But the didn't so we don't. Just wait a few years like everyone but Cygnar. [yea I'm ticked off. sorry] Every theme book is going to be set up the same way. Someone had to get theirs first, and that is Cygnar. When ours come out we'll get a bunch new models to go with the theme of that book. I believe it's ogrun.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 8, 2017 16:14:28 GMT
According to the fluff, this theme is more of an occupying force used to research the magics found in conquered areas. To me, it makes sense to have a bunch of beasts, pots, and magic users if that's your mission. Then what warbeasts would fit the fluff? If you're talking about bunkering down for research I'm not sure we have a beast type that fits the idea. If anything maybe it gets limited to non-flyers. That would appease the Fyanna belly aching. We have a scout theme that focuses on flyers already. So i guess this would be the counter part - Carnivean chassis, bloodseer, protector, lessers. That just seems arbitrary though. If we had more beast that could do something with magic maybe...
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Post by rhonlore on Jun 8, 2017 16:16:29 GMT
Free small based solo or CA for every 20 pts spent on models with Magic Ability or Nephilim Bloodseer models.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 8, 2017 16:29:47 GMT
First, we'd have to answer the question of whether or not this is supposed to be Legion's beast theme force.
If it is, then I think it's mostly fine, maybe forbid free Sorceress, but then they might as well remove her from the theme.
If it's not our beast theme, as the description suggests, and is actually our "magic" theme, they once again they might as well remove it, because we have 1 unit with a character UA, 1 character unit, 3 solos, and 1 beast that fit into it. This would be more restrictive then Children of the dragon, that forbids heavies with all but 4(3) casters.
Honestly it seems hypocritical that people can complain about Fyanna getting free support for her normal list, when Storm Division and some of the Khador one's are doing almost the same thing.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Jun 8, 2017 18:08:25 GMT
I wouldn't change anything because honestly I think the theme does its job just fine.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 8, 2017 18:32:54 GMT
I think on its face, Oracles seems broken because of how many points of free models you can get. And I think in perhaps another faction, it would be broken. But the only really viable way to run "beast heavy" in Legion is this theme, as otherwise all our over-priced beasts and the support required to run more than a couple simply costs too much. The only time I think the complaints against it are potentially legitimate is when it is combined with Fyanna... Who has plenty of very viable counters all by her lonesome. But if you really want to "balance" Oracles, then you simply need to address Fyanna.
It would be neat if the theme did more to encourage actually using our spell-casting models though. Apparition is great on Spawning Vessel, Hex Hunters, and BFS, but it caps out at one. So no one will ever run more than unit, and even then... doing so basically requires that we throw away a free Sorceress, who is objectively better than a full unit of Hex Hunters anyway. So I'd say if you wanted to do this, consider additional benefits for running more infantry. Perhaps for every 25 points of infantry in the list, some beast gets Advance Deployment or something.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 8, 2017 18:42:45 GMT
Salt-aside, I like the idea that was brought up to incorporate an entrenchment theme. I'm imagining tanky units like Carniveans and Protectors backed by shooters such as the Ravagore and Teraph.
Maybe the following restrictions: -Only heavies with ranged weapons -no flying heavies except for maybe Seraphs(I'd personally like to see the Seraph/Neraph be reclassified into lights.) -Lights+Lessers -Units/Models w/ Magic Ability -Spawning Vessel -Scather
And the following benefits: -For every unit included, one warbeast gains magic weapons -30pts of beasts grants a free solo/UA/weapon crew -Start with free upkeeps
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Post by copperflame on Jun 8, 2017 20:56:11 GMT
I don't want to get into the mire of 'is OoA broken' (I don't believe it is). I would rather look: 1) Is OoA our 'beast' theme or our 'magic' theme (not that they have to be exclusive) 2) If OoA is our 'beast' theme - did it accomplish that well? (I would disagree) 3) If OoA is our 'magic' theme - did it accomplish that well? (I would disagree)
So, that leads me to the original question... 1) what could be solutions to making a 'Magic' theme? 2) what could be some buffs to help Legion with beasts (if the 'magic' theme culls out that functionality)
But as someone already pointed out... we may just not have enough magic in Legion to construct an effective 'magic' theme. Hell 'don't change a damn thing' is also acceptable LOL.
An 'entrenched' theme is neat. I am disappointed in our other themes. I don't own Gargs for Ravens (not really inticed to do so yet). I don't know about CoD - I kinda wished they played some sort of 'Neph count as warriors for FF spells/abilities' instead of a generic unyielding. But there are some who like it so hopefully we'll just keep getting seeing more themes (here's to hoping for Ogren, Tentacles and Kallus2 friendly themes)
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jun 8, 2017 22:16:02 GMT
I'd release SR 2017.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jun 8, 2017 22:34:44 GMT
I like OoA as it is. It's theme we needed to be competitive and makes Bayal and HH somewhat playable.
As stated before we don't have enough magic stuff to make it relevant on its own, so it's probably just flavour in beast theme.
It's very restrictive theme, moreso than most competitive ones. It will only work for battlegroup heavy casters.
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