thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480 
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Post by thelat on Jun 14, 2017 4:53:23 GMT
I have been very keen on playing more Vayl1, and most of my lists tend to look something like this:
Sometimes in tier, sometimes not. The majesty that is Typhon is hard to turn down. But, I started thinking about Incite and how it was causing me to build lists with Feora3. Maybe the above list is an artifact of back when Incite was battlegroup only. Maybe we should look to Vayl1's power as an infantry caster. Consider this:
Not much in the way of defensive tech beyond the Blightbringer putting out Concealment or armor when you need it, but once there, you can have infantry hitting in melee at +4 to attack and damage rolls. You can throw in the Blackfrost Shard for another +2 on damage.
Has anyone experimented with this? What are your thoughts?
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Post by wkm on Jun 15, 2017 3:05:46 GMT
Banshees actually do well with Vayl in infantry builds.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Jun 15, 2017 6:00:35 GMT
Banshees actually do well with Vayl in infantry builds. That is very good thinking. And Force Barrier does a lot for getting them up the field. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 15, 2017 14:00:56 GMT
I'm off the opinion a Vayl1 list should kind of operate like it has two feats: The first is Cat n Mouse. You throw some long range stuff like Angelius/Neraph/Raptors into them and have it run away/jam further to avoid a counter strike. The enemy approaches again, hopefully unable to engage thanks to the jamming models you left between you and your main force. Then you move up with Vayl herself and cast Incite which is basically a very short range mini-feat in itself. Using both her feat and Incite is too dangerous/difficult since Vayl can't run away anymore.
To this end, I've been toying with a Ravens theme list:
War Room Army
Legion of Everblight - Vayl Ravens
Theme: Ravens of War
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Arcane Wonder - Steamroller Objective
Vayl, Disciple of Everblight - WB: +27
- Angelius - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17)
- Naga Nightlurker - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8)
- Angelius - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2)
- Seraph - PC: 14
Grotesque Assassin - PC: 0
Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion - PC: 6
The Forsaken - PC: 0
Strider Blightblades - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
Grotesque Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 12
Blighted Nyss Raptors - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18
THEME: Ravens of War
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It should jam like nobody's business with the speed of everything, and hopefully avoid much meaningful reprisal. Then when they finally get close enough to engage, you deliver hopefully what is the final blow with Vayls Incite. The trick is to make sure you have models in the first wave that don't care about having Incite to work. Hence Angels and Raptors.
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Post by slaughtersun on Jun 15, 2017 20:49:41 GMT
Last WTC i used vayl1 with 2x raptors, seraph, angelius, typhoon and some support. This this is good as it forces your oponent towards you. The raptors take pot shots and the attack of the enemy while creating a nice curtain to jam the opponent leaving them ready for another round of typhoon and angelius to face.
It has its flaws, especially against jack spam but overall a good list.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jun 15, 2017 21:34:10 GMT
I'm toying with Vayl1 lists. The main drawback I see is her lack of survivability.
What I see as remedy is huge base to hide behind. Like a Throne. She seems to have great synergy with it and Hex Hunters.
Needs testing though.
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Post by Cheesebeard on Jun 16, 2017 19:05:12 GMT
Vayl1 lists always feel a bit anemic to me, especially given that she's not particularly fond of any of the themes that are currently available. I think Hellmouth is a big deal for her, but playing out of theme puts her at a fairly stiff disadvantage compared to other options, so I'm hoping we get a competitive theme that permits Hellmouth, and will look at her as a more competitive option at that point.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Jun 20, 2017 12:58:40 GMT
I've been toying with her in RoW as well but with ambushing raiders and blight blades as well as raptors...she can get alpha easily with angeli and then jam with ambushing all the way to the center of the board as speed 7 with an extra is 3"+14"+7"=24" and if placed right prevents retalitory charges after the alpha. It is quite funny to have the opposition cram himself into the middle of the board and screw his own mobility just to get alphad on and then have you further screw his mobility...if feat is played right they will never get a chance to score.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 20, 2017 14:00:48 GMT
I've been toying with her in RoW as well but with ambushing raiders and blight blades as well as raptors...she can get alpha easily with angeli and then jam with ambushing all the way to the center of the board as speed 7 with an extra is 3"+14"+7"=24" and if placed right prevents retalitory charges after the alpha. It is quite funny to have the opposition cram himself into the middle of the board and screw his own mobility just to get alphad on and then have you further screw his mobility...if feat is played right they will never get a chance to score. That seems cute in theory. But to get their battle line covered you need to spend 22 points (full grot and blight blades) and one side of the field only has 6 models in the way instead of 10. Not to say it wouldn't work. But with no defensive tech from Vayl I don't see this doing more that buying you a turn. Which honesty might be all you need. Incite does make our stuff pretty frightening. Just beware gunlines. Vayl 1 just seems scatter brained to me. I really want to like her. But her feat is just... misguided. You want to use it to back off but you'll never get out of range of anything. So you would have to have some models move in and jam. But we don't have survivable infantry. We don't have beasts we can decidedly throw away, except maybe blight wasps. Then Vayl herself has no defensive tech. Her spells/ability list is all over the place with aggression but a decidedly defensive feat that specifically does not protect herself. It's disappointing really. |
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Jun 20, 2017 14:43:06 GMT
Her Feat works more than good enough to back out of range if the beasts you're using have ranged attacks. Typhon, Zuriel, Carniveans, Seraphs, Azrael, even Bolt Throwers and Nagas. All of those appreciate the ability to move backward after shooting. In MK2 I had a list with Typhon and Zuriel in it and a big part of how the list worked was to get those two beasts and a Seraph to focus down a single opposing heavy and then move to safety while jamming with Raeks if necessary. The problem now is that Vayl can't fall back herself so you're much more reliant on Dark Sentinel (which to be fair is still an incredible ability).
Unfortunately Typhon is Thagrosh's beast, not Vayl's which makes playing in theme awkward. For the time being Vayl1 seems better off playing out of theme which means you need to be extremely careful with every point spent since you won't have any to spare.
gordo has it more or less right - if you're looking to cast Incite every turn you're going to end up dead. The way to make Vayl work is to perform your first alpha strike at range and then Feat to pull back out of range of reprisal while jamming the enemy with an expendable screen. Once you're ahead on attrition you go in with Incite up to deliver a crippling blow and use Dark Sentinel plus camping at least three Fury to ensure Vayl survives. After that point it should be mop up.
Legion Army - 75 / 75 points
(Vayl 1) Vayl, Disciple of Everblight [+27]
- Azrael [21]
- Naga Nightlurker [8]
- Seraph [14]
- Typhon [24]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Grotesque Assassin [4]
Spell Martyr [1]
The Forsaken [4]
Grotesque Raiders (max) [12]
Hellmouth [6]
Hellmouth [6]
I haven't tested this exact variant of the list yet. The Grotesques + Assassin are the only parts I'm unsure of as 16 points can go a long way. Dropping that package and a Spell Martyr would be enough for an Angelius by way of contrast but it's vital that the opponent not be able to meaningfully retaliate after the first alpha strike.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 20, 2017 15:05:20 GMT
I do love Dark Sentinel. Zuriel with precision strike and the boost has the potential to cripple.
Incite as an alpha strike is a death wish...
I've not been a fan of our gun line "alpha". I've tried but it just doesn't seem to work well enough for my taste. But that doesn't mean it's wrong.
As for that list... that's a lot of eggs in one basket. But taking the ranged approach and then backing into the hellmouth's bubble of affect seems like a nasty move. I may try a variant. 2 Characters is just so many points. If anything I wonder if taking proteus would work. Leash and SS would give him a huge threat range, then backing off 5. Or SS and activate Proteus first, then move vayl, leash move, feat move.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Jun 20, 2017 16:28:29 GMT
The reason for the two character beasts is that Typhon and Azrael have the best guns on Warbeasts in the Faction in the sense that they're very high POW and having the ability to make more than one ranged attack per activation. They're very expensive but you won't find better beasts for the list concept in the Faction. Ravagores only get one shot each, same with Bolt Throwers and Teraphs.
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