gordo
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Post by gordo on Nov 28, 2017 17:24:09 GMT
I love the new Seraph. Apparition, Flare, and SPD 7 are great additions. I don't miss the fury 4 or the one higher PS. This beast feels aggressively priced given its amazing toolbox.
I love the changes to the Raek. Long Leash really makes it. The Countercharge animus has a lovely interaction with Stealth: get close enough to shoot it and it charges you instead. The ease of getting back strikes and the loss of Tenacity really hurts its ability to jam, however, but I still think this beast is bargain priced.
Hellmouths! Wow these are fun to play with and aggressively priced... They really feel like they should be part of every Legion list. I'm frustrated with their denial in our themes, but that doesn't stop them from being awesome additions to Mk3.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 24, 2017 9:37:09 GMT
Also, putting Manifest Destiny on Vayl would help her survivability now they they gimped her feat so severely. Thematically she clearly should be leading from the back as well.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 24, 2017 9:34:40 GMT
In another thread, I suggested the swapping of Incite on Vayl1 with Manifest Destiny on Thagrosh2. This would keep Thaggy up front and center and allow him to support both infantry and beasts equally. It would also contrast him nicely with earlier version as the more aggressive, smashy version. But most importantly, it would give him a place in this theme, which he really should have.
Many infantry themes still give benefits for their warnouns, despite being clearly infantry based themes because of the free points for units. If this trend is continued, I would like to see our infantry gaining Sacrificial Pawn: Warbeast. It would give them an important role but still largely for supporting our infantry. We could limit it to certain types (heavy beasts only, or non-flying, etc), but I think leaving it untyped already highlights different strengths nicely: Landsharks would have the armor and boxes to take more hits, and their speeds best match our Ogrun. This would give them an important role, which they could use considering they otherwise see no use at all. Wasps suddenly become a cheap shield guard option. Lessers would as well, but for their points, they would take a nice number of hits. Our heavy flyers would seem poorly suited for such a role, but their extra speed would help them keep up with our new Cavalry.
It does seem like an over-strong benefit but balancing factors would be the high costs and relative fragility of our beasts. Also this wouldn't be unprecedented: the Blackclads theme gets it for cheap minion infantry, and CoC gets it on their no-cost-at-all-free-replacements-every-turn drones, so...
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 22, 2017 11:14:08 GMT
I had not considered the system crippling with my Shredders analysis, that's a good point. It is sightly less of an advantage though in keeping Shredders alive though as even the lowly PS 14 open fist is deadly to them (as well it should be). I wish it was easier to apply Grievous Wounds in Legion (Ravens, Saeryn and Abby have good avenues for it and that's about it, if I recall).
I agree with you that Thagrosh1 is basically a gold mine, good in basically every theme we have. I think the lowered cost of Spiny Growth will help Thagrosh2 survivability significantly. I'd really like it if he and Vayl switched Incite and Manifest Destiny. Thagrosh has the stats and threat value to make it worth it for him to be in melee, and it would let him run alternately infantry or beasts... Which would make his Athanc rule a bit more relevant.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 22, 2017 1:51:57 GMT
Numbers inform every decision you make in this game. If the opponent has better numbers than you, he doesn't have to make better decisions than you. It's like playing with a handicap. I do prefer numbers in my arguments because the other arguments are at best anecdotal, which is a waste of time. Metas vary as well as player skill. If your experience tells you that Shredders help you fight the Legion points handicap, go with it. My experience tells me Shredders do not. At least, not with Thags2. Looking at the numbers informs me why that is. There probably is a valid argument regarding skill and Thags2. The extra movement from his feat synergizes well with multiple Shredders. Combo that with Scourge to knock opponents down to prevent free strikes, you might have a good assassination run on your hands. Shredders with Flank and Manifest Destiny and his feat should be great at killing casters if they can get an angle. But I doubt any decently skilled opponent would fall for that, especially since even minimal guns makes short work of Shredders. Alternatively: Have there been any top tournament lists using Thags2 and Shredders? Or for that matter, any top lists using Thags2 at all? I don't know, I'm genuinely curious. Yes numbers, technically, matter. But if you run everything by the numbers than we are s* out of luck. By the numbers we lose hands down. By "the numbers" a carnivean will only hit a warp wolf less than 50% the time. Angels only hit the 50% mark. Neraphs have a way to by pass def but still got that 50% chance on the initial hit to trigger it. So does that mean Legion is a hard loss against Circle? No, there are dozen upon dozens of different factors at play. Calculators can't do everything. You're welcome to enjoy using the calculators. But don't rattle off numbers at me because my experience doesn't match your algorithm. Your and my experience are no better or worse than the other. I get it, I was a overly pissy about the armchair-warrior like laundry list of probabilities. I made assumptions I should not have. But my success does not invalidate anything. OR vice versa. I'm just trying to put forth the idea that not everything is garbage and some things work as they are currently without a cryxian buff process. As for tournaments I have no clue. I couldn't care less about tournament lists/wins/loses/whatever. I don't play in tournaments and our local meta does not hold official tournaments. It might as well be a different dimension in space to me. Sorry. I play the game casually for the fun and the challenge. I specifically turn away from the "meta" lists like Fyanna 2 and Lylyth 3. I play the hard to figure out puzzles like Bethayne, Kryssa, Thagrosh 2, Lylyth 2, and Saeryn 1. Well, I apologise if I sounded like I was rattling numbers at you to invalidate your experience. I decided to do so to because I've never seen anyone the numbers on Shredders, and I wondered if the numbers really said that I was just doing something terribly wrong. I genuinely feel like your suggestion of using Shredders should be the correct answer. After all, what other purpose would they have if not cheap but not durable damage dealers? That's why I wanted to run through the numbers to see if that suggestion was correct. The numbers and my experience do not unfortunately support that. And yes, the numbers that Legion beasts have DO pretty much make us s* out of luck. I think there's a lot to be done with our speedy beasts that the numbers by themselves don't represent. Picking our engagements and engaging first are great tactical options. Unfortunately Shredders and Landsharks haven't got the speed (or even usable Pathfinder in the case of the Shredder) to make that happen. And yeah, I know some players that prefer the "challenge" lists. I actually hate Fyannacles because I feel it is too limited and shutdown too easily. I can see your concern about the growing negativity of the forums. It's cool, I think that's a good point. Though I think the point of this particular thread was to discuss what changes we would like to see as part of the Ogrun CiD, and since Thagrosh is an Ogrun, I think our discussion was not uncalled for.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 22, 2017 0:57:00 GMT
A reasonable option for dealing with Ranged attacks. Ogrun are both slow and costly given their survivability, so they will need something to help deliver them. Vengeance feels like a bad answer to the wrong problem.
A reason to use our Carni chassis. This "slower, trudgier" army seems thematically a great fit for our slower land sharks, but these beasts never seem to make up their points. Giving Ogrun models Sacrificial Pawn: Friendly Faction Warbeast would do this nicely, as well as address my first want.
Hellmouths. They are super fun and distinctive and I really miss them in our other themes. I'm just worried they will take them away. So let's hope they don't.
Blightbringer. He should have a place in at least SOME Legion army. It seems ridiculous that this would be the only list but I guess we have to take what we can get.
Obviously this will be an infantry list, but it would be nice if there were decent ways for our beast casters to play it. Especially Thagrosh2. He's an Ogrun, it would be nice if he had a decent way to run the Ogrun themed list.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 21, 2017 21:58:27 GMT
Ok, let's take a look at those Shredders: At 4 points each, you get 3 per one Ironclad. According to Buy or Boost, we have a 41% chance to kill. Not very good, especially considering the Defender is far more durable. If you feat as well, it goes up dramatically: 62.1% with only the first shredder using his feat attack! Leaving the other two to move away and do their thing. Change it to a Hammersmith and it takes all three feat attacks to kill it reliably at 72.3%. The rub in this scenario is actually getting the Shredders there. It's also assuming you have the space to get all three in melee range of the target, which should not be easy considering you only out-threat the Ironclad by 0.5". And then next turn when they frenzy, they only attack each other, wiping out your own army. Change this to a Juggernaut, chances become like %25 So as long as we only face all Ironclad armies that don't have any defensive tech, shooting, or counter-feats... It's possible I gummed up all my Buy or Boost calcs though, feel free to check. Oh holy crap. I must live in an alternate universe where you can roll dice and numbers come up randomly... Thanks for the numbers. I'll keep playing the game at the table rather than with calculators. [edit] Sorry that's pretty heavy handed. But Percentages mean nothing in this game. It can give you an idea of how things could go 50% of the time. But If you can roll a perfectly average game, please record it. Threat ranges can be played around. In MY list I run a pair of Neraphs to pull models TO the shredders and trigger flank. I also run a pair of Bolt Throwers to push away models that would try to dance outside of threat range. So I punish for not respecting my army positioning. I wait and pull the enemy towards me rather than rushing into the enemy. With that many models and the pot I can meaningfully contest until I can bait in the right models. I also Run Typhon to be the best bait model in the army. It's not about raw numbers. The game takes skill and both players can make good moves and mistakes. It's not a spreadsheet. Numbers inform every decision you make in this game. If the opponent has better numbers than you, he doesn't have to make better decisions than you. It's like playing with a handicap. I do prefer numbers in my arguments because the other arguments are at best anecdotal, which is a waste of time. Metas vary as well as player skill. If your experience tells you that Shredders help you fight the Legion points handicap, go with it. My experience tells me Shredders do not. At least, not with Thags2. Looking at the numbers informs me why that is. There probably is a valid argument regarding skill and Thags2. The extra movement from his feat synergizes well with multiple Shredders. Combo that with Scourge to knock opponents down to prevent free strikes, you might have a good assassination run on your hands. Shredders with Flank and Manifest Destiny and his feat should be great at killing casters if they can get an angle. But I doubt any decently skilled opponent would fall for that, especially since even minimal guns makes short work of Shredders. Alternatively: Have there been any top tournament lists using Thags2 and Shredders? Or for that matter, any top lists using Thags2 at all? I don't know, I'm genuinely curious.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 21, 2017 20:02:01 GMT
With Thags2 the issue is usually issue 2...beast cost / outnumbered. I know I'm very odd when it comes to how I build and play lists... But I don't feel outnumbered with 7 shredders plus other real beasts Believe in the power of flank. Pow 10 weapon masters under MD are pretty satisfying. We cannot run heavy beast spam. It's just not in the cards for us. We have to use every possible tool in the box. Thagrosh would welcome arm 18 definitely. I don't think Kromac's fur coat deal would make him Arm 18 but dragon blight skin can't reach the same level. I hope to use Thagrosh 2 in Primal terrors (no infantry though) once we get Golab in CiD. I will miss the spawning vessel. But I think sprint and finisher would just be too amazing to pass up. As long as Golab isn't in the 18+ point range I'll be golden. With Thags2 the issue is usually issue 2...beast cost / outnumbered. I know I'm very odd when it comes to how I build and play lists... But I don't feel outnumbered with 7 shredders plus other real beasts Believe in the power of flank. Pow 10 weapon masters under MD are pretty satisfying. We cannot run heavy beast spam. It's just not in the cards for us. We have to use every possible tool in the box. Thagrosh would welcome arm 18 definitely. I don't think Kromac's fur coat deal would make him Arm 18 but dragon blight skin can't reach the same level. I hope to use Thagrosh 2 in Primal terrors (no infantry though) once we get Golab in CiD. I will miss the spawning vessel. But I think sprint and finisher would just be too amazing to pass up. As long as Golab isn't in the 18+ point range I'll be golden. Ok, let's take a look at those Shredders: At 4 points each, you get 3 per one Ironclad. According to Buy or Boost, we have a 41% chance to kill. Not very good, especially considering the Defender is far more durable. If you feat as well, it goes up dramatically: 62.1% with only the first shredder using his feat attack! Leaving the other two to move away and do their thing. Change it to a Hammersmith and it takes all three feat attacks to kill it reliably at 72.3%. The rub in this scenario is actually getting the Shredders there. It's also assuming you have the space to get all three in melee range of the target, which should not be easy considering you only out-threat the Ironclad by 0.5". And then next turn when they frenzy, they only attack each other, wiping out your own army. Change this to a Juggernaut, chances become like %25 So as long as we only face all Ironclad armies that don't have any defensive tech, shooting, or counter-feats... It's possible I gummed up all my Buy or Boost calcs though, feel free to check.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 21, 2017 16:32:01 GMT
I've always lamented how difficult it is to get Thags up the field in time to make his monstrous melee output pay off. The change to Spiny Growth may help, but really I think brosif needs a speed buff. Otherwise you have the classic Legion problem: pay for tons of extras that you never can bring to bear (in this case, his PS18) The Hellmouth should help with this, but it's only allowed in our infantry lists, and he is clearly a beast caster... Disappointingly typical for Legion. Thags2 is a late game Heavy or an alpha iniciator...you charge with Thags, MD, blow half a colossal and feat. Charge with remaiming beasts and feat attacks. PROFIT. Oh I realize this was their intention. In my experience, it absolutely does not work that way. Apart from the typical Legion problem of "my entire army gets shot off the table before I can do anything", my beasts that hit hard enough cost so much I'm out numbered 2:1 (as well not having the threat range to engage before they do) or we just bounce off and nothing happens.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 21, 2017 15:53:55 GMT
Thags2 is awesome. He can one round a heavy and with manifest destiny his battlegroup (and of course himself) output is ridiculous. His only tweaks would be warbeast points (both his and Legion's beasts... perhaps more the last than the first) and eventually a few stat points changes in the defensive area as def 13 is really low compared to other equivalent models. I've always lamented how difficult it is to get Thags up the field in time to make his monstrous melee output pay off. The change to Spiny Growth may help, but really I think brosif needs a speed buff. Otherwise you have the classic Legion problem: pay for tons of extras that you never can bring to bear (in this case, his PS18) The Hellmouth should help with this, but it's only allowed in our infantry lists, and he is clearly a beast caster... Disappointingly typical for Legion.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 21, 2017 15:42:25 GMT
The number of boxes is misleading. Wasps only have armor 11, so having 5 boxes is really like having ARM 16. Actually, it's worse, because things like blast damage that would fail to even hurt ARM16 grunts on average rolls can still take out a Wasp after 2-3 tries. Would you consider 8 points for a unit of 4 guys with 13/16 defenses good? Durable? Don't get me wrong, Wasps have times when they are good, but box-spam attrition is absolutely not that time. Okay but what about the Ogrun? They have decent armor. Not without the Blightbringer, I wouldn't think so.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 20, 2017 18:52:22 GMT
How would point salad work if just played strictly attrition? I mean that is a ton of health boxes on the field. The number of boxes is misleading. Wasps only have armor 11, so having 5 boxes is really like having ARM 16. Actually, it's worse, because things like blast damage that would fail to even hurt ARM16 grunts on average rolls can still take out a Wasp after 2-3 tries. Would you consider 8 points for a unit of 4 guys with 13/16 defenses good? Durable? Don't get me wrong, Wasps have times when they are good, but box-spam attrition is absolutely not that time.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 13, 2017 20:04:59 GMT
Whenever I miss Legion's speed and flight, I put in some Archidons, who I think out-Legion them, that hit stronger, are cheaper, and Crit-Pitch having lots of fun applications on its own. Seraphs are 14 points. Gladiators are 15. That's not "much cheaper", and while it is a cheaper animus, I find Paingivers much easier and cheaper to use fury management so I don't really miss it. Non-linear is awesome, though, and I miss it's ability to help you run away and dodge free strikes. The Gladiator can do good work on its own and doesn't die to a stiff breeze, so I consider this kind of a wash. Also Grand Slam should not be underestimated. For every shenanigan I pulled off with Slipstream, I have done the same with super-slams from my Gladiators. Wraithbane is good, but I find that Skorne hits so hard I don't miss it. Having it used against me though... That really hurts. Though I think some of this is mitigated by the very high cost of Legion's ranged beasts, when fighting their shooting I usually outnumber them enough to not worry about the extra hurt I will take on the approach. I miss it was I make beast-based shooting lists though. In my experience, the grass really IS greener in the desert. Unless you want to play a strictly assassination game instead of attrition or control, in which case you will do much better in Legion. I'm not even convinced that legion are generally the better assassins. Morghoul of all flavours has never failed me at murdering people either directly through his blessed sword, or indirectly by setting it up. Mordikaar gets hilarious angles with voids and sprays. Rasheth can dumpster their ARM stat as well as lower def. One of Zaal2's specific win conditions is the opponent kills just a little bit too much of his army and he opens up a spell machine gun that'd make vayl2 blush. Not to mention the threat of cats under zaal1 feat and last stand (4d6 to hit, 4d6 pow 12 x2 for each cat), or Makeda2 dropping her knockdown spell. Mak1 is pretty adept at it too because you can have a SPD8 molik karn get Rush, charge 13", side step twice (currently at 19" threat) and then get jackhammered up to 4-6 times depending on if you want to carnage and if marketh was still alive to upkeep for you I've had a great time warpathing heavies into casters that jalaam shoots twice too at RAT9 POW12-14. Great example was Jalaam shot kaelyssa twice with prey dealing 10 damage after focus. my cannoneer whiffed its shot at her. i warpathed my bronzeback who received rush. the bronzeback then charged his 9" (threat 13) and put up beatback and punched a ret jack for a couple inches directly back to come into melee with kae on like 5-6 boxes, and it just took one boosted to hit swing at PS19 to end her life I mean, assassinating is never my prime win condition unless the match up is dire because i find it can be extremely hard to actively plan to assassinate when your target could be as hard as Vlad1 under blood of kings or super tanky or just end up in a favourable terrain position where LOS and cover come into play in their favour. But when i do have to kill something dead... they die pretty well. I pretty much agree with this 100%, but I also realize that I've never been a very good assassination player, so I assume there is just assassination tech exclusive to Legion that puts them over the top. Mainly because everyone says so. But I sure don't see it.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 13, 2017 17:18:18 GMT
I play (and lose) against Legion the most. It's basically just me and two other guys in my meta. We play weekly, but yeah, I face legion every week. I wouldn't say there's one model I'm particularly jealous of, but the faction as a whole seems very impressive. I know that the Legion player is better than I am, and so I'm not of the opinion that I just have a worse faction, but onto my thoughts. Nearly universal Flight/pathfinder and Eyeless Sight are the biggest thing. It's a little bit like Legion is playing a different game than everyone else. If you haven't dabbled in another faction, you might take it for granted. Obviously, terrain is mitigated very easily in Legion, but it's also easy to take for granted being able to move through your own models all the time, and ignoring a lot of defensive tech like stealth and blind and your own knockdown. The general stat skew towards def, spd, and accuracy comes out in your favor, I think, too, as being (at least) 3 points higher in spd and def and a point higher in accuracy is better overall than just having 2 more arm and a couple more health boxes like Skorne does. Also, PP sprinkled all the legion models with lots little additional effects like assault, push/pulls, battle wizard, quick work, and crit effects that have steadily made me appreciate these seemingly innocuous rules that might not trigger every activation, but add up a lot over the course of a game. On top of that, guns, especially sprays, are included on tons of models where it's not their primary purpose, but I can attest they can do a lot of work when need to. Lastly, wraithbane is always making me sad. When everything has eyeless sight, there's much less defensive tech for me to rely on, and what I can rely on is ignored by Wraithbane. Slipstream is definitely a big upgrade to Rush. Not only is the animus on a far cheaper/efficient beast, but it's a cheaper animus, and adds nonlinear threat vectors. I think arm stacking is the one thing that I've managed to use most effectively against legion. Not like it's shut down my Legion opponent every time, but it's been the most effective. I would recommend that you stay in Legion. "Grass is greener" is likely at play. Whenever I miss Legion's speed and flight, I put in some Archidons, who I think out-Legion them, that hit stronger, are cheaper, and Crit-Pitch having lots of fun applications on its own. Seraphs are 14 points. Gladiators are 15. That's not "much cheaper", and while it is a cheaper animus, I find Paingivers much easier and cheaper to use fury management so I don't really miss it. Non-linear is awesome, though, and I miss it's ability to help you run away and dodge free strikes. The Gladiator can do good work on its own and doesn't die to a stiff breeze, so I consider this kind of a wash. Also Grand Slam should not be underestimated. For every shenanigan I pulled off with Slipstream, I have done the same with super-slams from my Gladiators. Wraithbane is good, but I find that Skorne hits so hard I don't miss it. Having it used against me though... That really hurts. Though I think some of this is mitigated by the very high cost of Legion's ranged beasts, when fighting their shooting I usually outnumber them enough to not worry about the extra hurt I will take on the approach. I miss it was I make beast-based shooting lists though. In my experience, the grass really IS greener in the desert. Unless you want to play a strictly assassination game instead of attrition or control, in which case you will do much better in Legion.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 13, 2017 16:58:35 GMT
EDIT: I forgot the Hellmouth. Holy crap, I love this model and would love to put it in Skorne. But because it was denied entirely to all Legion themes I kinda forgot it existed... Even now the only theme I would consider it in relies on Ogrun, which are just not good so... Oddly enough the Hellmouth is available in Ravens, which is... weird, to say the least. Yes, but I stopped playing Legion before this was so. And even so, I can't find any Ravens lists I would want them in. That theme is so fast but lacking in hitting power, it feels like the pulls wouldn't be helpful. But yes, it's really weird (from a fluff perspective) that Ravens has Hellmouth.
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