gordo
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Post by gordo on Nov 13, 2017 14:06:36 GMT
Ironically, I got into Skorne because I was fed up with Mk3 Legion. Having played both factions extensively though, he's what I miss when playing Skorne:
MAT fixers. I find this doesn't come up a lot, because Skorne hits so much harder and is generally cheaper to boot before you even account for casters that I find I can usually just boost to hit instead.
Sometimes I miss Slip-stream, but I certainly don't miss paying 14 points to get it (and not much else other than Flare), not when I can pay 15 and get Gladiator who has much the same threat extension function but also does tons of work himself.
You would think that I would miss Eyeless Sight, but between Extollers and the general points inefficiency of Legion shooting beasts, I very rarely notice I don't have it. Maybe there's more of a need to charge through clouds in other metas?
I think that's really it. In pretty much every generalized way (threat extension, infantry spam, armour cracking, anti-shooting, shooting, casters, fury management, theme strength/versatility, etc) I feel like Skorne has Legion beat. There's nothing I miss.
EDIT: I forgot the Hellmouth. Holy crap, I love this model and would love to put it in Skorne. But because it was denied entirely to all Legion themes I kinda forgot it existed... Even now the only theme I would consider it in relies on Ogrun, which are just not good so...
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Nov 6, 2017 14:04:48 GMT
I use him to lead my Titan herd with Xerxes2, though I've found the basics of the list (Imperial Warhost) work with a bunch of casters (Rasheth, Naaresh, etc). I treat him as fury management combo'd with a stronger than normal Titan Gladiator. These lists typically have 4 Titans (including BB himself), at which point he makes the fury management much easier. At only 3 more points than the Gladiator, he includes about half the functionality of a Beast Handlers unit (saving me 2.5 points there), so I'm paying about half a point for a more survivable, much harder hitting Gladiator with a fairly useful targetable animus. He ends up being pretty lynchpin in my lists.
Now, a reasonable question you may ask: why use a Titan herd at all instead of spamming Archidons and Rhinodons and Derp Turtles? I'm still working on an answer to this myself, but with bonus Agonizers and Kreas from the theme, they pretty much crush any jack spam list I've encountered, while being largely unbothered by shooting. I'm not sure if Don-spam would work as well into so much armor spam.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Nov 2, 2017 21:23:58 GMT
So our first new release in a while, and they are actually available in multiple themes. Most people seem to want them for Puppet Master, which I see mainly useful to ensure a hit, occasionally useful to get a better damage roll. Ensuring a hit we do pretty well already with tons of MAT fixers, but then I noticed...
Thrones + Shard + 3 units of Ice Witches is a LOT of Ice Cage being thrown around, which could lead to a lot of Stationary enemies. Use either the more accurate Shard or Throne to start the chain, with Puppet Master or a Bloodseer or Flare where needed, then use Witches to finish the chain to Stationary... Used on Unit Leaders it can prevent an enemy unit from charging, but those models will be easily hidden out to range. What else can we use Stationary for? Combo with Precision Strike to take out Cortex to prevent them from shaking the effect... Or to prevent them from making free strikes on our Angelius flying in. The latter seems like a poor man's Lylyth3 though, so I'm not sure that is so helpful.
Any other ideas?
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Oct 31, 2017 21:36:40 GMT
Three things: a +1 is also good when u roll LESS than ur opponent but get to tie from the +1. Thats 16/36 possibilities where the +1 is useful, and yes, still less than half, but 4/9 and a 66% chance to choose first or terrain is still a strong benefit. Second, Protectorate has an infantry theme that buffs warjacks. Third, why is a balanced list "Skornergy"? When i build CotD its almost always ~50 beasts and ~50 infantry. The theme has many choices to reinforce balance: No Forsaken, no Seraph, no Naga but yes to BFS, and no free Sorc on Helion. Most of your complaints can be summed up as "I wanna run 60+ points of beasts/infantry and be rewarded for it" but the theme builds balanced lists. Well, you've sort of hit the nail on the head in that "I would like my themes to be as good as everyone else's themes". Because everyone else gets to make functional lists with their themes and be rewarded for it with three free solos. We only get two. Perhaps all the other themes are unbalanced but CotD is right on the money? There's no parity. Also I may have mis-worded my die-roll argument, but the +1 is only useful in exactly two situations: you rolled exactly the same as your opponent or you rolled exactly 1 less. That's 1/6 (the chances of you rolling the same number) + 5/36 (the chances of you rolling exactly 1 less than your opponent) = 11/36
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gordo
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Afflictor
Oct 31, 2017 19:08:10 GMT
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Post by gordo on Oct 31, 2017 19:08:10 GMT
I think it would go great in most Ravens lists. For its point cost it jams fairly decently, and the Incubus it leaves behind should as well. I think it's anti-infantry role would be better served with a higher MAT, so consider him with Thagrosh2 or Vayl1, especially since both their feats allow for some hit and run, leaving Incubus-caltrops behind them to discourage being chased. I don't know if I want to spend my battle group points on a beast that struggles to even dent marginal armor in a theme force that already has allot of infantry mulching /jamming options but can struggle against armor. I prefer it in a theme like Oracles where battle groups tend to be smaller and additional bodies and a cheap anti-infantry model can be very useful. Good points. I had forgotten that Ravens allowed non-flying light warbeasts. Still, I would think there's enough heavies available in Oracles that "jamming" would not need to be a primary win strategy. Also I think there are better "per points" options available for beasts in terms of pure jamming. Given the Afflictor's speed matching other Nyss perfectly, I would love to put it in a CotD list but...
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Oct 31, 2017 18:33:18 GMT
I used to play Warhammer (fantasy and 40k), and one thing I found that made a huge difference between those and Warmachine was the tightness of the rulesets. The rules for Warhammer leave a lot of room for "judgement calls": can your model see mine with True Line of Sight, do Synapse creatures count as Psykers when fighting a Callidus Assassin, etc. GW rules have lots more room for interpretation and intention than do PP rules. This, for many players, leads to arguments. For others, they like the interpretive aspect of these rules. It becomes more cooperative story telling than competitive gaming. Which makes sense, considering all GW games originated from RPGs back in the day. Though I suppose the same could be said for all RPGs originating from wargames (ie Chainmail)
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gordo
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Afflictor
Oct 31, 2017 18:18:27 GMT
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Post by gordo on Oct 31, 2017 18:18:27 GMT
I think it would go great in most Ravens lists. For its point cost it jams fairly decently, and the Incubus it leaves behind should as well. I think it's anti-infantry role would be better served with a higher MAT, so consider him with Thagrosh2 or Vayl1, especially since both their feats allow for some hit and run, leaving Incubus-caltrops behind them to discourage being chased.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Oct 31, 2017 17:30:36 GMT
I do not think that in an infantry list that the Seraph or Nagah are mandatory. Not at all. I actually said that. But the theme benefits certainly present this army as a Nephilim army, not an infantry army. I do think that Zuriel and Azrael sync really well with the Nagah and Seraph and Forsaken, but maybe not so much that they overcome the value of Unyielding. But that's just more fuel for it being the Azrael/Zuriel theme. I think we value the "+1 to first" very differently. At best, this benefit matters 1 out of 6 games (or maybe 1 out of 3 to get the tie for roll-off, I'm not sure if that math here), and that's only on tables with even-ish terrain. Maybe I'm missing something there though. I also think that Unyielding is pretty much not useful on regular Nephilim. On Bolt Throwers it does little, since they should never be in melee. I like it on Bloodseers, but they are largely worthless in melee and they are far too slow to jam (especially without Seraphs). Same for Protectors. Soldiers in my experience don't survive with or without it. This leaves me with a theme benefit that only help melee armies but only on models that kinda suck in melee. It sounds like your mileage is better though. Again, thanks to Zuriel and Azrael, CotD has some strength. But that doesn't make it well designed. It's very unintuitive and skornergistic. It's a beast theme that lacks all of our good beast support or an infantry theme that doesn't boost infantry or a combined arms theme that has no rules that actually make the infantry and beasts work well together. Sure, it's some free models, but that's not a benefit, that's the new normal. Everyone gets those bonii, and most themes don't have to sacrifice much to do it. Circle I think is in a similar place with its restrictive themes, though I don't play Circle so I don't have a strong opinion there. Skorne's DoA theme is warlock restrictive, but it doesn't lose much (if anything) of what makes the faction iconic, and what it loses it gains massively in more options from Minions. I disagree almost entirely with your position on CotD. What specifically are you calling skornergy? the part where you get free solos for taking beasts? It's hordes. you need to take beasts regardless, so why not get free stuff for taking things you need to take? Here's my thing, IMO, the beasts *ARE* the support. Your work models in a CotD list are going to be the infantry models 9 times out of 10. I've got my Thags2 list that has only a min unit of swordsmen. What are you calling the 'good' support models? Shepherds, Succubi, S&H, BFS are all allowed in theme. AFAIK the only thing really missing is the Forsaken. The +1 to starting roll is relevant about 66% of the time, way more often than you suggest. And yes i think if your meta isn't building terrain in relevant ways then yeah, i guess it wouldn't matter. In my area we make certain that every piece of terrain is important and that there is a legitimate thought process in deciding to go first or deciding to choose side. I played a game recently where a flag was in an acid pool, so I chose the other side so I could deny my opponent the flag entirely without even doing anything. Unyielding has been the difference between my soldiers surviving a round or costing my opponent an extra attack/boost to kill them on many many occasions. 13/18 is a very solid statline for a light. Consider the fact that they have precision strike, if you can carve out a cortex/spirit or break their arms forcing them to boost for two dice against def13 there's a strong chance it'll survive. With a damage buff they can often cut off both the cortex and an arm of a jack. When you roll off to determine first turn, the opponent will roll the same number as you 1/6 of the time. In this instance, you would win the roll off because of the +1 from the theme. Your opponent will roll exactly one more than you 1/6 * 5/36 times (because if you roll a 6 he CAN'T roll more than you). In this instance, the +1 will cause a tie and therefore you would both re-roll, again making your +1 to go first relevant. So 11/36 times your +1 to determine who has first turn will be relevant. In every other instance, either you or he would go first regardless of your +1. So the MAXIMUM number of games that the +1 to go first is relevant is less than 33%. And that's ignoring any tables where choice of side is roughly as useful as going first. TLDR: the +1 to go first mathematically has no effect on the game more often than not. Unyielding is useful on Soldiers, for sure. But you are trading the bonus threat range from the Seraph to get it. Meaning you will get charged and shot more often on the approach, which in many cases will more than make up for the armor bonus from Unyielding. All of this on a light warbeast that you can't spam (thanks to not enough fury management without Forsaken) whose point cost is only 1-2 points less than his preferred prey (heavy jacks) on the other side of the table. Does that make up for no Hellmouth, Forsaken, Nagah, and Seraph? I doubt it. But that shouldn't matter, right? Because CotD is an infantry theme! It's strength is in Legion's Nyss infantry, right? The Nephilim are just there for support and to fill out your beast points. From what I've seen, every other infantry theme out there gives bonus points for taking infantry, not warnouns. So unless our infantry is much better than every other factions, we are effectively playing down points from everyone else. Or the presence of our Nephilim synergizes strongly with our infantry. Except in most cases, it does not (the only real example of its synergy is with Bloodseers, who only help Hex Hunters, whom they can't keep up with if they take their UA). This is what I mean by Skornergy: it's either a war beast theme that is only good when you spam 2 character beasts and ignore all other options (nevermind that the better of those two characters would prefer to not be in melee anyway, making Unyielding even less useful)... Or it's an infantry theme that is hamstrung compared to every other infantry theme in the game by playing with less points. Compare it to the current iteration of Oracles: a beast theme that rewards taking beasts? Great! But a theme benefit that boosts infantry? Now you got a reason to take both. The idea of an all Nephilim force is good and fluffy. I own 9 various Nephilim, so this was great news for me, until I played it. The execution was awful. It could MAYBE work as a beast theme if it included the models needed to make our beasts work well. But it doesn't do that either.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Oct 27, 2017 17:32:21 GMT
I think the legion non flying heavies just need some points re-adjustments. The flying heavies seem fine to me. I also think the new Ogrun theme is going to help all of you out with arm cracking. I would like to see the angelius maybe be 16 over 17. Outside of fyanna, it never reclaims its points and even then its a stretch. I think if the Angelius is going to maintain it's speed and threat range, it needs to cost much more than it can kill. The way (I think) they intend it to to work is (somehow) survive to the next turn or hit a target that is already softened up from range. I would actually really like that latter scenario, but the Ravagore costs FAR too much with no survivability to make this viable (though maybe we should look into Neph Bolters as an alternative?). I think, if there is any problem with Angel, it's with the rest of the faction being costed too much or not having the offensive power needed to do what it has to in order to support it. One minor change I would make to it is to give it Reposition or Sidestep instead of Overtake. I think this would help it to perform the hit and run that I think it is supposed to do.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Oct 27, 2017 15:09:08 GMT
Yeah it would be totally weird for a Legion warbeast to have Overtake when Fyanna 2 gives it out as a Field Marshal. That would be like a Legion warbeast having Immunity: Fire, Continuous Fire on its melee attacks and an animus that gives it Immunity: Fire when Kallus 2 has a Field Marshal that gives his beasts Continuous Fire on melee weapons and a spell that grants Immunity: Fire to models in his control area. Angelius has Overtake natively. Nephilim Swordsman gets it as an animus. So unless we have problems with those models having it... While it would be nice for there not to be overlap, it kinda has to happen at some point and one caster overlap should NOT be a reason a model doesn't get what it should have. Though I think giving the Scythean bulldoze would help go to making it better at killing infantry without said overlap.
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gordo
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Afflictor
Oct 27, 2017 15:02:41 GMT
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Post by gordo on Oct 27, 2017 15:02:41 GMT
I like them with Bethayne when I play her outside of CotD. It's a way to get Incubus in Ravens and Oracles, and Incubi are great with her feat. The Afflictor is already there for the flank too! But it has to have enemies grouped near enough that the Incubus has something worthwhile to flank. Attractor helps with that though...
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Oct 25, 2017 23:42:12 GMT
I would agree with your sentiments if they took this same approach to the other factions. They did not. So it leaves Legion playing "down". Also, when you take out Nagah, Seraph, Forsaken, etc, what (if anything) about CotD makes it distinctive from other factions? It feels like your basic argument is "git gud", which while certainly true, does very little to actually making players enjoy their faction over others. To be fair, I don't think that the Seraph or Nagah is really needed in CotD, because apart from spamming 2 character beasts, there is no compelling reason to use Nephilim. So you should focus on Nyss... Only then you don't get any free points, which is you no incentive to play in theme at all. TLDR: CotD is fine power wise, but it fails at it's intended goal of being the Nyss/Nephilim theme. It only succeeds as the Azrael/Zuriel theme. Another restrictive theme off the top of my head is the wold theme from circle, the living warbeast theme, skorne tormentor theme that allows 3 warlocks to use it and there are more. Legion is not the only faction to get limited options. CotD is taken to have access to the nyss selections from our faction. The unyielding bonus is good and the theme opened up and became more viable when they allowed both Azrael and Zuriel. You can still make plenty of CotD lists that are good and viable in the current meta. The +1 to go first is strong. CoTD is what gives you access to the strong and diverse infantry options. Are you telling me that the naga is a mandatory beast along with the seraph? I do not think that in an infantry list that the Seraph or Nagah are mandatory. Not at all. I actually said that. But the theme benefits certainly present this army as a Nephilim army, not an infantry army. I do think that Zuriel and Azrael sync really well with the Nagah and Seraph and Forsaken, but maybe not so much that they overcome the value of Unyielding. But that's just more fuel for it being the Azrael/Zuriel theme. I think we value the "+1 to first" very differently. At best, this benefit matters 1 out of 6 games (or maybe 1 out of 3 to get the tie for roll-off, I'm not sure if that math here), and that's only on tables with even-ish terrain. Maybe I'm missing something there though. I also think that Unyielding is pretty much not useful on regular Nephilim. On Bolt Throwers it does little, since they should never be in melee. I like it on Bloodseers, but they are largely worthless in melee and they are far too slow to jam (especially without Seraphs). Same for Protectors. Soldiers in my experience don't survive with or without it. This leaves me with a theme benefit that only help melee armies but only on models that kinda suck in melee. It sounds like your mileage is better though. Again, thanks to Zuriel and Azrael, CotD has some strength. But that doesn't make it well designed. It's very unintuitive and skornergistic. It's a beast theme that lacks all of our good beast support or an infantry theme that doesn't boost infantry or a combined arms theme that has no rules that actually make the infantry and beasts work well together. Sure, it's some free models, but that's not a benefit, that's the new normal. Everyone gets those bonii, and most themes don't have to sacrifice much to do it. Circle I think is in a similar place with its restrictive themes, though I don't play Circle so I don't have a strong opinion there. Skorne's DoA theme is warlock restrictive, but it doesn't lose much (if anything) of what makes the faction iconic, and what it loses it gains massively in more options from Minions.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Oct 25, 2017 20:17:49 GMT
Faction defining pieces are what makes each faction unique and distinctive (from a gameplay perspective) That's kind of the point. That's why beast handlers are in every Skorne theme, etc. Otherwise why not just play the other factions? What makes a faction "that faction" if not the unique mechanics of that faction? If you deny the models that have those mechanics, what faction are you really playing at that point? Sure, you can make a good CotD list without them... By running two characters and ignoring almost every other aspect to the theme. The whole point of the theme was to make a Nephilim themed force viable, but all it has really done is make a Azrael/Zuriel themed list viable. Or the point of it was to make an all Nyss infantry list viable, but it clearly hasn't done that. Or it was supposed to make a Nyss+Nephilim working in concert list viable... Which it really hasn't done either, since the only incentive to even play the Nyss is because you NEED them to get any work done (apart from two "supposedly rare" character beasts). Ravens has less of an issue, apart from its inability to crack armor. Beyond that, while more heavily restricted than everyone else's themes, it at least functions as intended. The addition of Hellmouths I find to be very confusing thematically, and with such high speed only models I don't find them very necessary. Primal Terrors should have a "Vengeance-like" benefit for ALL Ogrun, not just Warmongers. Otherwise it is the "Warmongers theme", not the "Ogrun theme". Beyond that it basically has what it needs to function save for all Ogrun sucking (but we can assume this will get addressed somehow). Oracles as a "beast theme" is more or less well designed, though I really think it needs Hellmouths to compete with any of the other War-noun themes. Our flying beasts wouldn't care much, but the Carny chassis pretty much needs them to function. Also, the "mages spawning abominations" fluff really kind of supports their inclusion. After all, aren't they really just buried versions of the Throne? It's included so why not the "thrones that dig"? I feel CotD is fine. You get a good blend of models, a benefit to nephilim, +1 to go first and free solos and command attachments for your units you’ll take. This list fits right in the middle of balance for warbeasts to infantry for the most part. Nyss options are very viable and good. Raptors BFS Spawning vessel Hex hunter Swordsmen All are good options. Adding Azrael and zuriel gave the list stability for the sub type and allowed consistency in your battlegroup. You can take thags1, kallus2, Kryssa, bethayne, vayl1 all in this heme and it does very well. The issue is that unless we have access to our full lineup of models players will feel left behind. Once players play games and get off the reliance on certain models you’ll be able to build lists deeper than before. I hate the naga but take it only when I need it to fight certain matchups. If I have the ability to not use it I’ll do that every time. Seraphs, while great, someone’s don’t pull their weight, even with slipstream. Leaving them behind allows a better ability to point crunch and get models that hit consistently at the level you need. I disagree with a lot of what’s said in this thread. Legion players are down because we’re not giving everything on. platter. Grow outside of your comfort zone and build new lists and ideas. It will really help your list construction abilities all around. I would agree with your sentiments if they took this same approach to the other factions. They did not. So it leaves Legion playing "down". Also, when you take out Nagah, Seraph, Forsaken, etc, what (if anything) about CotD makes it distinctive from other factions? It feels like your basic argument is "git gud", which while certainly true, does very little to actually making players enjoy their faction over others. To be fair, I don't think that the Seraph or Nagah is really needed in CotD, because apart from spamming 2 character beasts, there is no compelling reason to use Nephilim. So you should focus on Nyss... Only then you don't get any free points, which is you no incentive to play in theme at all. TLDR: CotD is fine power wise, but it fails at it's intended goal of being the Nyss/Nephilim theme. It only succeeds as the Azrael/Zuriel theme.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Oct 25, 2017 19:46:48 GMT
Let's face it: 5" bases are awkward. Having some freaking hedge wall or mechthrall stop my hulking huge mega-monster from participating is just not good design. The colossals work because they are primarily giant turrets, but Gargantua seem to have guns as an afterthought. Simply put, they need better movement rules across the board. The fact that they don't all have Bulldoze is kinda shameful. They probably should all have some kind of "Colossal Trample" as well, much the same way that they have Gargantua versions of the other power attacks, that makes it easier to find your "landing spot". Maybe smaller/medium based models are automatically pushed aside or something, dunno.
Until we get rules that actually make it possible for our Gargantua to GET to melee without being stopped by a Whelp, they simply need better and more ranged attacks. Otherwise they fail at the role they are intended to fill.
Also, in every other faction, the "no outside of normal movement" rule is a benefit. In ours, it is a hindrance. This skornergy should be addressed (at least, on the Archangel).
An animus that isn't a trap would be nice as well. I think Repulsion would be suitably majestic for the Archangel. Not sure what I would give the Blightbringer...
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Oct 25, 2017 18:33:09 GMT
Faction defining pieces are what makes each faction unique and distinctive (from a gameplay perspective) That's kind of the point. That's why beast handlers are in every Skorne theme, etc. Otherwise why not just play the other factions? What makes a faction "that faction" if not the unique mechanics of that faction? If you deny the models that have those mechanics, what faction are you really playing at that point?
Sure, you can make a good CotD list without them... By running two characters and ignoring almost every other aspect to the theme. The whole point of the theme was to make a Nephilim themed force viable, but all it has really done is make a Azrael/Zuriel themed list viable. Or the point of it was to make an all Nyss infantry list viable, but it clearly hasn't done that. Or it was supposed to make a Nyss+Nephilim working in concert list viable... Which it really hasn't done either, since the only incentive to even play the Nyss is because you NEED them to get any work done (apart from two "supposedly rare" character beasts).
Ravens has less of an issue, apart from its inability to crack armor. Beyond that, while more heavily restricted than everyone else's themes, it at least functions as intended. The addition of Hellmouths I find to be very confusing thematically, and with such high speed only models I don't find them very necessary.
Primal Terrors should have a "Vengeance-like" benefit for ALL Ogrun, not just Warmongers. Otherwise it is the "Warmongers theme", not the "Ogrun theme". Beyond that it basically has what it needs to function save for all Ogrun sucking (but we can assume this will get addressed somehow).
Oracles as a "beast theme" is more or less well designed, though I really think it needs Hellmouths to compete with any of the other War-noun themes. Our flying beasts wouldn't care much, but the Carny chassis pretty much needs them to function. Also, the "mages spawning abominations" fluff really kind of supports their inclusion. After all, aren't they really just buried versions of the Throne? It's included so why not the "thrones that dig"?
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