gordo
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Post by gordo on Feb 19, 2020 13:59:21 GMT
Just remember that the +2 is only against constructs. Good into jacks, Wolds, and Exalted.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 6, 2020 15:05:03 GMT
In our group it is mixed. Little of all. Thanks for the great input and the list. I realy want to try the Xerxes list because i like the Models I also read right now about the units It seems that the Siege Animantarax is hard to get right now. When not ordering directly from pp. So, regarding Xerxes2 and Siege Animantarax: I used to run 2 with him. A LOT. It's still good, but... Often not good enough Lately I've swapped them out for Heavies again (Tiberion and a Archidon) and it's been doing lovely. Hers my rationale: 1. Shield Guards. Thanks to some strong theme benefits, they are everywhere. Grymkin with Crabbits, CoC with servitors, CG with Vanguards, Valkyries, and those absurd Initiates of the Wall. So the guns on the turtle end up often doing not much work. And without those guns, their damage output is greatly reduced and often worse than a Heavy of lesser cost. 2. They can't shake anything so they are hard to protect from status effects. Shadowbind, Blind, etc... Rough stuff and their base size makes it impossible to hide them. They require support models to protect them from all this. Valkyries, some kind of Eyeless Sight granter, etc. This inflates their cost even more. 3. 13" used to be a really far threat range. It doesn't feel that way any longer. Archidons and Molik Karn threaten farther, Tiberion and Sentries threaten the same... This would be offset by their guns but see point 1. 4. They take up a lot of your Painalgiver activations. 5. Their huge base size can be a big issue. Blocking your own models, always visible everywhere, easy to charge even when they are already engaged, easy to block paths and landing spots with terrain and models... It's hard. 6. Cryx, specifically Black Industries. Carapace makes their shooting all but pointless and it is all but impossible to protect them from the many debuff spells that will crush them. 7. Let points spent on support. I don't need to spend points on a Moist Speaker, etc. My point is, depending on what's hot in your meta, you often can get away with running beasts instead without getting hurt much. One of my Siege Turtles got broked and I had to play without it for awhile while it was being fixed. I found out I did much better without them now that the meta has shifted. Mileage may vary depending on your meta of course but they no longer feel like the "must have" that they did before.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 3, 2020 20:31:25 GMT
Hey, welcome. I partially agree with what Gordo said. The Krea and Agonizer can fit into almost every single list, so they should be some of your first picks. I don't consider the Shaman, Willbreaker and Soulward mandatory, but they're very nice to have - they can lead to support bloat if you run all of them. Beyond that I also agree with what Zich said in the thread. your first mandatory purchase should be a max (x6) unit of Paingiver beast handlers, two if you want to run a beast list, after that it's really up to you. do you want to run beast heavy? combined arms? infantry spam? gunline? once you have a better understanding of what you want to run, it's easier to know what to aim for. And I'd recommend writing up a clear list (preferably two) before you start buying anything, owning a ton of models but being to create a single cohesive list is every frustrating. trust me, you don't want to put yourself in that position. If you scroll down in the thread a bit, I don't think any of the lists are competitively viable, but if you're just getting into the game that shouldn't really be on your mind right now. Just build a list that has pieces you like and at least some basic synergy. Is there any warlock in particular that appeals to you? Oh wow. Looking back now, I don't even agree with myself... I never run Willbreakers (because I never run Masters of War any more), and i only occasionally run Shamans (because I don't need to clear enemy upkeeps like I used to, thanks to meta shift and Supreme Guardians) and Soulwards (thanks to Guidance being available through objectives and non-spray shooting being difficult to use thanks to all the Shield Guards and similar effects running around). But yeah, Agonizers are in every list I run, Kreas in ALMOST every list I run. They don't make it into Exalted lists because the best ranged attacks into them deal continuous effects on a either a spray or a scattered AoE, both of which punish models for clumping 3" around a Krea. I still run Kreas in anything that is beast heavy or anything that uses Shield Wall.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 27, 2020 20:56:55 GMT
Well, as long we are pie in the skying a rules buff for Warbeasts, I've been pinning for a change to the basics of Threshold and Frenzy checks for a long time.
As it stands now, they don't come up much in any kind of "calculated risk" way. When a warbeast makes a Threshold check, it is almost always directly after their Alpha and at full fury... Which almost always means they will fail because they have to roll 5 or 4... This is really more of an "expected outcome" than a "calculated risk". Unlike Focus mechanics which require a player to make regular and difficult turn-planning decisions at the start of their turn, Threshold and Frenzy checks just don't involve the same kind of decision making... What's more, it's often actually worse for beast to pass his frenzy check because then you have this beast that is full of fury, can't be transferred to, can't boost, etc...
But what if there was a benefit to passing a Threshold check? Some reason for players to actually want to intentional take that risk from time to time?
I've always felt that if a beast passes a frenzy check, they get to remove 1 fury. Fluff wise, the beast controls their rage, swallowing some of their anger without lashing out. Mechanically, this would allow any warlock the luxury of running larger Battlegroups without relying on some external units/solos to help their beasts contribute a little per turn. Same way that thanks to Power Up, any Warjack can contribute per turn without requiring focus investments.
This would make the differing Threshold stats more meaningful. Beasts that have a 10 Threshold vs a 7 would actually have an advantage that players can count on. Effects that let you reroll frenzy checks would see more play. Effects that raise or lower a models Threshold would as well.
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gordo
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My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 27, 2020 20:26:38 GMT
Morgul2 is usually considered pretty decent also. His feat is incredibly strong and Mortality is always an excellent spell.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 14, 2020 15:25:12 GMT
I like the Battle Boar with Makeda 3 to power up Cyclops Brutes. I like Road Hogs on occasion because they give access to Sprint on my caster like an Archidon, threaten the same distance, but hit harder and come with a spray. If Shield Guards weren't so everywhere I would consider Splatter Boar with a Mammoth, but that's about it.
I kind of like SlaughterHousers backed up by Taskmasters. Take Down plus accuracy plus high hitting power gives them a place, but they will always get out threated and they have horrible defenses. So sometimes I look at them if my list can deliver them safely or I need a cheap second wave of damage dealers. Brigands seem more or less pointless these days. Lousy defenses plus prevalence of Shield Guards and other infantry killers make their high price point really too much to ignore. Bone Grinders seem pointless in a world where Cyclops Shamans and Immortal Vessels exist. Heck, even a Blindwalker makes them seem pointless.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
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Post by gordo on Jan 14, 2020 15:15:50 GMT
Chiron I would take with Xerxes2 (or possibly another caster) in a mostly Basilisk sprays for days list. Thanks to crazy proliferation of Shield Guards, sprays end up being the only shooting I think works reliably any more. Bonus is you don't need to slot in an Eyeless Sight giver...
Tiberion is amazing with Xerxes2. Like... I cry a little inside whenever I play Xerxes2 and don't run him. Between his insane durability, off the charts hitting power, immovability, overtake, and Shield Guard... In one round on feat turn, I had good old Tibbers single handedly take out a Victor, a full unit of Manowars, a Strike Tanker, and then finish it up by crit slamming Vlad2 out of the zone to score it. If I am considering a BB with Xerxes2 over Tibbers, it's because I need his fury management over a herd of Titans. But since my usual X2 list is dominated by Derples and sometimes a colossal, there's no need usually for that.
Despoiler had more value in the past for me because of Dark Shroud, but now that the Hermit and Void Spirit are available I'm not as keen to run him. I would consider him with a caster that really wants a lot of fury to use/camp because of the free upkeep he gives. So Morgul2 and Makeda3 (the latter really turns up his hitting power and comes with some good Shield Guards to help keep him alive). Also his animus can really help Makeda3 be a bully.
Molik Karn is great with any and every Makeda, but especially Makeda3. Again, I would only consider a BB over Molik with Makeda if I wanted to run a herd of Titans and needed good fury mgmt. But why would I ever do that with a Makeda?
I look for BBs when my list needs a bruiser to hit in a second wave and I don't have access to a stronger character beast and I still have caster Battlegroup points to spare. Otherwise I will just get one of our awesome Battle Engines instead. Or I'm running a Titan Herd, but those lists feel outdated and outshone by other lists these days.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Dec 20, 2019 20:01:50 GMT
Minions are ok, they still have less options than main factions, though. Particularly farrow. Cavalry/ structures are something possible. Speculation about new units is going to include “ something for almost everyone”, I suspect. yea, Mercs/Minions are in the odd position where they're the only factions (other than minifactions) that only have access to a single faction's unit pool, while all of the other factions are effectively a faction and a half. they can't take every option at once, but they have access to everything mercs/minions have. I don't know quite why, but I sort of get the impression Minions are hurt by this more than minions. Might be talking out of my ass, though. Well, there are a few non minions themes out there that have "unlimited" access to Minions models (such as Disciples of Agony). While it would not let you play them paired with another minions theme, you absolutely play a primarily Minions army without playing Minions. Which means a Minions player kinda sorta does have access to a whole other faction's worth of models. Kinda sorta. Not really from a competitive pov but from a "I want to play something more varied but without buying a ton of new models" pov
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Dec 20, 2019 19:51:51 GMT
Really, even if you don't play on a clock or even with steamroller style list pairings, you REALLY should be playing scenarios every time. They add a huge dimension to the game and help to demonstrate the value of all the different model types (war jack, unit, solo, Battle engine, etc)
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 12, 2019 19:44:48 GMT
She's a construct? Really? Is there a fluff reason for this?
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Sept 10, 2019 16:33:48 GMT
Bronzeback seems more universally usable to me. He doesn't need accuracy fixing, can run without Painalgivers, etc. The Sentry feels more unique: longer reach, shield guard, but needs caster support to do enough. Frankly I like Sentries with Zaadesh and Xerxes2 only. Bronzeback I like almost all the time. But in those two instances, I find the Sentry to be quite worth the inclusion. Of course those lists often include a BB as well...
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gordo
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My star is green?
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Local JML
Sept 5, 2019 20:10:15 GMT
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Post by gordo on Sept 5, 2019 20:10:15 GMT
Gordo thanks for the awesome tips, i kind off like the last list, because silly me already bought all the models in there except the minion stuff and a second agonizer/Archidon (but i have a Rhinodon?!). Can i ask why you dont take Zadeesh? Thought he would help with the focus burden X2 has. I honestly have no clue, how this list actually is able to control all the beasts it contains . It seems like, to acutally "learn" the Skorne stuff this list is exactly the one i need. Our WotoF player now mentions he wants to play Vlad 3 with a Judicator, so this probably will be the most shooting it has to endure. Anyway thank you very much. I now have at least some kind of clue, where i want to go Q1: Why no Zaadesh? A: He doesn't get X2's field marshal. So all of Zaadesh's beasts can't keep up. Q2: How do you handle this much fury? A: The Bronzeback is your friend here. He keeps all your Titans running for free thanks to his leadership. Your Painalgivers are mostly only there for Enrage and free charges. But more or less this army holds back and does favorable piece trades with Archidons until it has a devastating alpha. Most of your stuff risks frenzies the turn after that, but hopefully you don't care because you've killed so much. But yes, you have a point, which is that this list will have fury management problems. That's why I recommended the first and second lists... You pretty much can't run an all beast list with X2 without fury issues after your alpha. C'est la vie. Q3: Is this a good learning list? A: I do not consider this a good "learning" Skorne list. It's easy to play, sure, but it is hard to win with and top tier lists will never run this list without 1-2 turtles and/or a gargantuan. So you aren't really learning much stuff you can use later on. But boy oh boy is it fun, so that kind of makes it good for beginners, and it resembles what you were asking for earlier: bricky and beefy Q4: Is the Rhinodon good? A: He's decent ish... I've tried to make Rhinodons work with X2 a number of times. They trade up fairly well, only at 12 points there aren't that many pieces to trade up against, and he doesn't hit any harder than the Archidon does unless he can get his fists in, but then he's even less threat range... And he still costs more. He's pretty beefy under animus but at that point he's going to start draining fury reserves fast and still is is far less beefy than a BB or Sentinel in combat, while packing less of a punch and being less fury efficient since he lacks the Titan keyword. Basically, the Rhinodon costs more than a Archidon, is harder to run than an Archidon, and has a hard time hitting harder than an Archidon. The only upside is that Spiny Growth plus Force Aura from your Krea can make X2 much harder to kill from shooting... But then he just targets the rest of your army instead. So... Hope that helps
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Local JML
Sept 4, 2019 18:01:28 GMT
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Post by gordo on Sept 4, 2019 18:01:28 GMT
War Room Army
Skorne - X2 jml 75 Can Be Played Drunk
Theme: Disciples of Agony 75 / 75 Army
Xerxis, Fury of Halaak - WB: +28 - Archidon - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Bronzeback Titan - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 1) - Agonizer - PC: 0 - Basilisk Krea - PC: 0 - Agonizer - PC: 0 - Tiberion - PC: 19 - Titan Sentry - PC: 15 - Archidon - PC: 10
Feralgeist - PC: 2 Swamp Gobber River Raider - PC: 1 Swamp Gobber River Raider - PC: 1
Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8
THEME: Disciples of Agony ---
GENERATED : 09/04/2019 14:01:15 BUILD ID : 2089.19-07-18
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Local JML
Sept 4, 2019 18:01:07 GMT
via mobile
Post by gordo on Sept 4, 2019 18:01:07 GMT
War Room Army
Skorne - X2 jml 75 2 turtles
Theme: Disciples of Agony 75 / 75 Army
Xerxis, Fury of Halaak - WB: +28 - Archidon - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Bronzeback Titan - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 1) - Agonizer - PC: 0 - Basilisk Krea - PC: 0 - Agonizer - PC: 0
Siege Animantarax - PC: 17 Siege Animantarax - PC: 17
Bog Trog Mist Speaker - PC: 4 Swamp Gobber River Raider - PC: 1 Swamp Gobber River Raider - PC: 1
Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8
THEME: Disciples of Agony ---
GENERATED : 09/04/2019 15:24:05 BUILD ID : 2089.19-07-18
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Local JML
Sept 4, 2019 18:00:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by gordo on Sept 4, 2019 18:00:50 GMT
War Room Army
Skorne - X2 jml 75 Hydra
Theme: Disciples of Agony 75 / 75 Army
Xerxis, Fury of Halaak - WB: +28 - Archidon - PC: 10 - Bronzeback Titan - PC: 17 - Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 - Agonizer - PC: 0 - Basilisk Krea - PC: 0 - Agonizer - PC: 0 - Desert Hydra - PC: 35 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28)
Bog Trog Mist Speaker - PC: 4 Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor - PC: 5 Swamp Gobber River Raider - PC: 1 Swamp Gobber River Raider - PC: 1
Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2
THEME: Disciples of Agony ---
GENERATED : 09/04/2019 14:00:38 BUILD ID : 2089.19-07-18
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