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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 8, 2017 15:45:38 GMT
Pretty much anything will struggle to kill a Mountain King under stone and Doomie 3s feat, or an arm 27 Stormwall, or a Derp Turtle under Rasheths feat and Gnawing pain, that is not a problem unique to Nemo 1, so I don't think it can be levelled as a particular criticism of him in general Well for 1. I was able to kill MK under Doomies3 feat and stone with Stryker3 a full unit of furied lances, savio, and a stormclad with Iron Aggression. 2. I wasn't even considering Rasheths feat just Inviolable Resolve(which nets same result if you want to get technical) and gnawing pain and I was able to take a derp turtle down with stryker1's double colossal list on multiple occasions. Yes I focus fired but that is one of the main strengths of s1 double colossal, I have extreme threat ranges thanks to snipe and can wrestle with the best of them in melee cause POW 20 fists. 3. Haley2 still has game to smaller model count lists which some of those armies are Here is the thing, his old list had shooting, punching power, and anti range tech. Did it work in SR16, sure. That is mainly because most of those older scenarios you didn't have to spread out as far. In SR17 and with most average lists I don't really have to come to you, infact; I can park my happy ass on my zone/flag while controlling the middle objectives/zones. Lets not forget that Nemo1 would have trouble going into many hordes(and by many I would say about 80%) matchups. He would have to avoid trollbloods, skorne, and Grymkin at the very least in its entirety. I can even name some lists Warmachine has off the top of my head Nemo1 would not be able to drop into. So your getting like a what, List A handles 90% of the match ups while List B (nemo) handles 10%? Again it seems to me we are relying on old data like Haley2 didn't get nerfed or something. It just doesn't pan out. Again nemo1 needs a rework.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 8, 2017 3:25:48 GMT
Said like someone who has not played Nemo1 . I mean, Nemo1 and Nemo3 share the same name but they are not the same. Nemo1 offers more shooting resilience and more threat extension. Nemo3 is a shooting list sans any shooting buffs. Nemo1 is a melee list almost entirely, Nemo3 is a ranged list. Let me explain the difference. Let's say you're facing Haley2, Stormwall and Thorn. This is unlikely as Haley2 is rarely a Cygnar drop. Still, it's a strong list and will properly explore the purpose of why Nemo1 is better. Nemo3 wants his feat to kill to the Arcane Shielded Stormwall. Problem? Stormwall is immune to electricity and is thus totally immune to Nemo3's biggest threat, his feat. Haley's Stormwall outthreats everything on Nemo3's side of the table. Sure, Magnetic Hold is fine against Thorn, but the Stormwall's analog guns are decent into Nemo3's ARM16 and ARM18 jacks. Nemo1 is going to disrupt Thorn with his feat and then Voltaic Snare him and then shoot him to death with Dynamo. The Stormwall's guns are all dice -6 or more to Nemo1's jacks. Nemo1's PS21 Stormclad will out threat Haley's Stormwall turn after turn, Nemo3 cannot do that, he's always out threatened by Haley2's heavies. Nemo3 into anything with stealth, like Kaelyssa, just gets hosed. Nemo1 doesn't care. He casts Decel and waits it out. In short, this game rewards melee and punishes ranged attacks, almost to a fault. There's more shield guards, more self sac, more concealment than there is anti-melee tech (which I think is pretty much limited to Defensive Line). My Nemo1 list can shoot, it has (had?) 3 Fireflies and Dynamo and 2 Stormclads. Yes, Stormclads have guns. Also, what people do not expect is I use my fireflies, if they're not shooting, as slambots. Slamming jacks and disrupting them is really good, especially when it's repeatable. Last, Nemo3 either can't play into the mirror (Stormclad, Stormwall, out threatened at range by Sloan or Caine3) while Nemo1 loves to see that matchup. Part of my Haley2 problem was playing into the mirror, Sloan and Caine3 being prime candidates to kill Haley or her biggest tools (Stormwall, Thorn). Nemo1 shuts that all down. He doesn't need Nemo3's feat to kill Cygnar infantry (Afterall, Trenchers die to POW12 eleaps whether or not the damage is boosted) and he out threats every ranged and melee list in Cygnar's arsenal. Got Stryker1? I have Voltaic Snare, who cares? Got Sloan or Caine3? All your jacks are disrupted and your hunters are dice -6. Got Lances? I'm immune to their shooting and all my jacks have reach, preventing their repositions. Got Siege1? I have Decel, have a nice day. Nemo1 and Nemo3 are not the same caster. Not at all. Their playstyles are totally different. What they play into is totally different. Again you are basing your experiences on old data and claiming it can hold up. It just doesn't, as I said every nemo1 list you can come up with another caster can just simply do it better. You want to make in-faction comparisons saying its your Cygnar drop, that is wonderful Stryker1, Darius, Kraye, and even Haley3 can all drop into Cygnar as well as the Ret matchup but Stryker1, Kraye, Haley3 can also drop into Slaughterfleet, Madrak Fennblade spam, Fyana Oracles, and just your basic speedy spammy lists. Know who also can tackle most of those style lists just as well? Nemo3. So you can stop talking to me that I don't play Nemo1, I have. Just because you had some good luck with him back in SR16 doesn't mean that luck will hold over now that more themes are out, now that infantry spam is making a comeback, and now that multiple different styles are available. At best you hope to get an alpha thinking between Lightning Shroud and 4 focus it is enough to take out whatever target you attempting to kill because if you don't (and the player you are playing against is hordes) they can just piece trade with you. If you are targetting a heavier target like a BE or colossal chances you will need to commit 2 jacks or at the very least commit 1 to melee and use Firefly and Dynamo to finish it off. If you don't which honestly ARM 27 Cygnar colossal, ARM 22 Animatrax (ARM 24 if your under baby elephant's range in melee), and Mountain King under Doomy3's feat benefitting from stones will be quite hard to do and those models will be in a great position to continue to piece trade with you. Even if we flat out ignore the Stryker 1 ARM 27 Stormwall/hurricane Against Animatrax thats 7 to 8 damage on a charge and 3 to 4 per swing with the blade after that. You will need at least 2 stormclads to kill that Animatrax or at the least roll alittle on the higher than average(which I've already calculated +1 damage per swing on average) with Stormclad or Dynamo. Against MK you will definitely need to roll hot or focus fire. Simply put you do a total of 32 damage in 1 activation with a stormclad. Out of 6 swings at the very least 18 of that will be healed back (not including D3 part of the roll just the 3). It just sounds like to me you are looking at Nemo1 through rose color tints while 3 out of the 5 cygnar casters I mentioned in this post have been used by big name players and have done well consistently at conventions while I haven't seen Nemo1 barely make a blip.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 7, 2017 23:21:43 GMT
My idea about Storm Division was largely off-the-cuff and said without thinking, it was like "maybe there's some dojo I hadn't done yet." But, look, I've played a lot of Nemo1 and my previous list was Nemo1 -Squire -Firefly X2 -Dynamo -Stormclad -Centurion -Lancer Jr -Firefly Jakes -Reliant Arlan But if I wanted to make an SR2017 list this is what I would do: Nemo -Squire -Dynamo -Firefly -Lancer -Hammersmith -Stormclad Jr. -Firefly Jakes -Stormclad Trencher Combat Engineers Field Mechanics (MIN) So I'm trading a Firefly and a Centurion for two units (one of which has guns because lawlz!) and a Hammersmith. That doesn't seem like a massive hit to me. A Hammersmith with 7 PS19 attacks and an 11" threat seems pretty nutty. Lord knows the Centurion was the most unnecessary part of my previous list. Personally, I would just change your list to a Nemo3 list and have my other list cover this lists' weakness. I would go Storm Division, go for 2 min units of Storm Lances, Storm Strider, Jr, 2 Fireflies, Dyanmo, Thunderhead, Arlan, and Reinholdt. I feel your list would have trouble against super speedy infantry lists were Nemo3 can simply do a fort nemo (using your phrase) and use Thead's pulse, Storm Strider's stomp/2shots, or have enough leaping action through Nemo's gun/chain lightning. Lets also not discount Magnetic Hold and his feat.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 7, 2017 21:34:42 GMT
snarlyyow it sounds like to me you are largely playing him in specific matchups during a certain period of time were mass warjacks lists were the norm. But yet as you said so yourself, you haven't played him lately since hordes seem to be a lot more common now then back in SR16. So while I am not trying to discount your points they do seem to be very dated. I admit that a lot of my experience is in SR2016 but I've played him plenty since then. If anything the new themes are the big question, especially Clockwork Legions because I don't think Nemo1 answers that as well as he answered Destruction Initiative. But I think the whole meta is this way, is Caine3 in heavy metal still viable? Surely if Caine is Nemo1 is doubly so. Nemo1 has a fantastic army wide buff, Caine does not have a unit buff at all. Nemo1 wants to play a melee centric list, allowing him to commit to zones, Caine and Sloan do not want that. So while I respect the idea that Nemo1 may have lost steam in SR2017 I think if that's true it's certainly less true for him that two of our widely claimed "power casters". Kara Sloan is seen less not due to SR17 but due to the increase of anti-gun line lists. Caine3 lists changed, how or what has this change has yielded is something I am not sure of. If you try to perform these same changes with Nemo1 I don't think you will get as good as result as you did in SR16(and SR16 meta). You say bring him in Storm Division and my assumption it will include lances then my question is why not bring Stryker3. You say a mix up of blades and lances then why not bring Siege2. Try to take advantage of the BE with Fireflies and blades to taste, why not bring Nemo3. In short, I am sure you can come up with a list that may work but one of the other casters will do it better and have a personal threat presence on top of that. And if SR18 and so on continue to how SR17 is designed, Nemo will fall further and further behind which based upon some of the posts/musings on facebook it seems SR17 trend/style will continue. This is why I say he needs a re-work.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 7, 2017 20:34:18 GMT
snarlyyow it sounds like to me you are largely playing him in specific matchups during a certain period of time were mass warjacks lists were the norm. But yet as you said so yourself, you haven't played him lately since hordes seem to be a lot more common now then back in SR16. So while I am not trying to discount your points they do seem to be very dated.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 7, 2017 2:51:50 GMT
I have to say I've also played him a lot. I know a few other people made comments about his survivability but I agree with you on his defensive stats. Technically against range attacks with AS & Deflection, he is ARM 20 which is hard to pierce by most non-blessed fire power. But to point out some things here: I think this is the biggest (?)issue(?) right here. Now why I put it in (?), is because the way I read that is you are admitting that his sets of tools aren't that useful due to SR17 and if you are admitting that why still hold him of high value? To me, if we are discussing casters strengths and weaknesses considering how they fair in the meta talking about how they will do in SR17 would be apart of that. Stryker3 can definitely put a hurting through cycling Fury (admittingly this works better on infantry then jacks) and his feat. With Escort his entire battlegroup speed is increased for 2 versus the 3 to 6 to speed up by 1 more. Granted a Stryker3 list is built differently than a Nemo1 list but even then Stryker3 lists are better suited to tackle a bigger variety of playstyles then Nemo1 would be simply due to how SR17 works. Stryker1 is considered by in large one of our best casters since MK3. This is backed up by the bountiful wins brought to Cygnar by Patrick Dunford and Jarle Svengald. In the cygnar forums ran by Jarle I had a small battle report at 1 convention were I was literally beating opponents without losing a single model in all my games but 1. In SR16 double colossal was dominate and in SR17 Storm Division with him is a powerful all-comers list. Darius attrition game is definitely a lot better then you give him credit for. Between repair, refuge, his feat, and crane he can cycle warjacks a lot better than Nemo1. He has a pretty sneaky assassination vector for low def casters by running a warjack up and using jackhammer. Darius is also pretty tanky if you can give him AS and he camps as well. I mean you answered this question on your own. The meta against certain factions are needing more and more magic weapons and ways to cut down infantry by the dozens. Caine1 and Siege1 answers this question. Having played all 3 with Kraye being my most played I can tell you that you are not taking into account how useful pathfinder is. Kraye re-work makes him really powerful as far as mobility. The ability to charge something getting boosted attack, kill something, then Repo 5 away is a big middle finger to the enemy (even more so if your a centurion and can use polarity field). Lets not discount Counter Measures and Admonition. Maddox is pretty linear play style (I would say most battle box casters are) but her linear style also works in her favor. Her Arcane Shield + Tough spell (sorry im at work and the spell name isn't coming to me) is bonkers good as well as Onslaught. Snipe is also a useful spell (although out of place) to have in our faction as a whole. Her feat is definitely useful to clear a zone or just get that extra oomph you need when you attack something in melee. As far as exact match ups you say you were using Nemo1 to cover Haley2 weakness (is this pre-nerf haley2 which had a weakness dependent on the list you built?) because if so you were cructching hard on something that was overpowered then building a not so well-practiced against list that may have thrown some opponents off. Don't get me wrong thats a good idea but can this work over and over again at conventions against big name players?
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 6, 2017 20:58:43 GMT
So to me, I think you are being very generous saying he's rank 6 or 7. Even if were to agree with him being rank 6 or 7, you would have huge gaps of useful abilities/tools that the higher set of casters can take advantage of that Nemo1 just doesn't do. As you said, "his toolkit is static" which while good in some situations is a detriment in many others.
Now to my first point, I would say (and you probably agree) cygnar's best 6 casters are (in no particular order) Haley3, Haley2, Caine3, Stryker1, Kara, and Nemo3. But I would say the next best 5 casters would be (again in no particular order) Stryker2, Stryker3, Siege2, Maddox, and Kraye. At this point, we hit the halfway mark and I think a few more casters like Darius, Caine1, and Siege1 are all stronger then Nemo1. So even if you don't agree with the next 5 after the top 6 you can't seriously think that Nemo1 has a stronger damage output then Stryker3, Stryker2, or Siege2 along with having a better personal threat presence. You can't say Nemo1 threat extensions are better then Kraye, Maddox, or Siege2 (although I know Siege is mainly trencher infantry). And all of those 5 casters have stronger feats. I am not saying Nemo1 feat is unusable but its way too niche. Pow 14 auto-hitting feat is nice but in some cases, you need to boost in order to disrupt jacks. To me, if Nemo1 got a rework to be the anti-battle group caster as oppose to being the anti-warjack caster I feel he would be a lot better.
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Nemo2
Dec 6, 2017 5:27:43 GMT
Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 6, 2017 5:27:43 GMT
I can agree with the most under talked and most underapperciated but even by your standard hes in the lower echelon(which is being generous saying hes rank 6 or 7). This is a faction with 21 warcasters, so being in the top 25%-30% makes him pretty hot shit in my book. I mean, he's competing with Haley2, Haley3, Caine3, Sloan, Stryker 1 & 2, Siege2. You know, I'm putting him in that elite group of casters. This faction has some of most powerful casters in the entire game so when I say "Nemo1 is in the top 6 or 7 in this faction" he's far, far, far removed from "lower echelon". If you think being a top 10 caster in this faction makes a model "lower echelon" then....thats nuts. I mentioned the seven casters above, add Nemo1 for 8, them add Nemo3 and Kraye and tell me which of these 10 casters is "low tier" because you can't convince me any of them are. And what I'm saying is in this elite pool of casters, many of whom are ball busting, Nemo1 sits among their ranks. We are probably going to thread jack this and derail the post. I'd be happy to debate you on this. If you like to start a new thread on it I'd be happy to post on it. Otherwise its going to be a back and forth talk on Nemo1 on a Nemo2 thread.
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Nemo2
Dec 6, 2017 1:35:15 GMT
Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 6, 2017 1:35:15 GMT
...I wish Nemo1...would get a rework Nemo1 one of the best casters in faction. Like, top 6-7. He's the most under-talked about and most under-appreciated caster in Cygnar. I can agree with the most under talked and most underapperciated but even by your standard hes in the lower echelon(which is being generous saying hes rank 6 or 7).
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Nemo2
Dec 5, 2017 20:49:43 GMT
Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 5, 2017 20:49:43 GMT
I use to play Nemo2 and Nemo1 with 2 Centurions and 3 Ironclads. Though... I wish Nemo1 and 2 would get a rework
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Post by jpgreat1 on Oct 31, 2017 20:30:54 GMT
This post is clearly getting off topic but to echo more of what has been said, its more or less dependent on your meta. Clearly fans of either system will tell you that the other game is dying. I mean hell, ever since I started working nights I was told that my local meta warmachine base was "hemorrhaging" players. Yet come convention time it had the most players. Play whats fun to you. It may be better to get a demo in both games then decide. I can tell you based upon people who I know who travel around the USA tell me all the time that warmachine has more conventions but are overall smaller cons while GW games draw bigger crowds at bigger cons. Either way its apples and oranges.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Sept 27, 2017 15:30:51 GMT
to be fair to PP in their Primecast about Gravediggers they did talk about Long Gunners being seen as an antiquated institution, and under Julius they were being folded in the Trencher Corp in an effort to modernise them, so maybe it is fluffy that they don't see the table anymore, as they are ceasing to exist at all... Then what they should do as opposed to coming out with a completely new unit that forces people to buy them in order to use them (or in my case attempt to sculpt) they should allow a UA to be attach to the long gunners and then the long gunners become trencher long gunners.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Sept 27, 2017 15:02:05 GMT
Scarecrow hit the nail on the head for me. I am now trying to figure out how to sculpt the regular long gunners into trencher long gunners. Last time I did any sculpting was in art class back in Elementary school... some 25 years ago
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Post by jpgreat1 on Sept 26, 2017 15:00:32 GMT
I'm in the same boat as Cain. You also forgot to add in the giant shoulders that trenchers were. This is what I would do personally, buy backpacks for each one, sculpt shoulders on some while headgear on others. The unit leader would get both. Shoulders shouldn't be that hard to sculpt especially if you have left over knives from your commando unit.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Sept 23, 2017 19:09:13 GMT
I always figured Church of Morrow would be one of the first themes they released. I remember them talking about it to such a degree I figured we get that quickly.
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