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Doooom
Feb 21, 2018 15:54:35 GMT
Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 21, 2018 15:54:35 GMT
kaos Actually warhammer is a lot more expensive then warmachine. Average warhammer lists are 500 to 900 while warmachine 300 to 500. Granted Guildball and Malifuax is a lot less expensive for obvious reasons which you stated.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 21, 2018 15:21:26 GMT
galrohir I get 865 bucks. Were are you getting the extra 90? I even tried to do exclusive models and the more expensive variants and I rounded up to the nearest dollar. Did you casually add in something extra? Perhaps war-room? And I also got 40k LVO list to be more expensive? What corners are you cutting? Did you leave out the codex? Maybe an elite? Charistoph You just say people change a few models and its overall cheaper but the same can be said about warmachine. I mean I pointed out how cheap the change would be swapping S1 SD list to H2 SD. Even going from S1 SD to N3 HD wasn't a great expensive change in comparison. Also as I pointed theres a difference between tweaking and changing major parts of your list. But also I want to point out every blogger/youtuber states when you want to create a new list you pretty much start from square 1 with very little cross over. For example Glacier Geek plays Genestealer Cults which has some cross over with Tryanids (which he also plays). Its almost a 600 dollar separate charge each for his two lists. (total would be near 900 if not more because he has more of a collection but I'm going off what was on the video plus crossover)which if we look at Keith's list which is a very expensive list cause of the slayer spam 40k is still more expensive.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 20, 2018 21:25:31 GMT
Charistoph I think we already established this part earlier in the discussion but if you want me to repeat it. To be tournament ready in 40k you need 1 list of 2000 points. Using Commander Gamza's youtube video for Ultra Marines his price tag was a substantial amount. If you think, maybe Ultramarines aren't a good way to base price then hes done one with Imperial Guard, Necrons, Chaos, and Eldar. All of them were similarly priced. Don't care for that youtuber, the original guy in the first post in this thread also done videos for building competitive 40k lists. I can also link Glacier Geek, Miniwargaming, & OMS whom all have done similar videos. For Cygnar I choose my more expensive 2 lists Nemo3 HM/Stryker1 SD. Even trollbloods (a faction that is known for being really expensive) was still cheaper. Then I am told look at the entire collection you could get. Okay, I went on the GW site clicked on the Ultra Marines check mark and unchecked all-in-one boxes, took the price tag of the main codex, took out Apocalypse, and went to adding. I stopped at page 5 when I hit 3000 dollars. I still had 5 more pages to go. So in a way you can state I was looking to total every single unit, tank, walker/dreadnaught, artillery piece, and solo that was available to Ultra Marines. Cygnar based off the PP page was 2700 bucks, again I did similar things as far as paying for Warroom app (all faction decks), did not count all-in-one boxes, as well as choose more expensive variants when 2 were presented. Again PP was cheaper I've also asked several hobbyists as well as store owners near me how much GW was in comparison to PP. All of them universally stated GW was way more of an expensive game even with some of the discounts you could get. You want to compare 1 set of models versus another set and say "oh look cav is cheaper in GW games" which is true but again are you going to buy the bare minimum? Again after discussing this with people who run GW stores that is never the case. You are buying battalions worth. So that point, isn't really a good point. You want to continue to compare now bring up COI and Kill team? I mean it seems that you are just moving goal posts to fit the narrative but even then as you pointed out there are probably tons of outliers there.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 20, 2018 18:10:09 GMT
So even the comment of Charistoph comment of is just wrong. Again, GW is a lot more expensive then PP I've crunched the list based numbers for you, looked at possible deals for you, as well as added up entire collections. GW lost every metric. Hmm, it doesn't seem to lose at every metric at all. On a per model basis (for the same size), GW wins most of the time. The hard part is that you aren't dealing with a per model basis most of the time. Most GW units require a minimum of 2 boxes to complete (Tacticals being a rare full model set, even if missing Weapon options). PP units sometimes come complete in a box, but often-times do not. You have the box, plus at least one blister (if not two to six) in far too many cases (currently). Still, one does not need to have two of a unit in a WarmaHordes game (though, it is useful), much less six. The scale of game favors PP generally. Compare the number of models that you bring in one 75 pt Steamroller list versus a non-Primarus Space Marine 1850-2000 point list. The numbers are vastly different. This is why GW tends to be much harder to get in to, but once complete, the need for collecting is minimal. The individual model trends to be cheaper, but GW games generally required much much more of them. Now, figure how much it would cost to run the same number of PP models in a GW game, and you'd be looking at including 2-3 Warcasters/Warlocks, easily, just as GW games include at least 2-3 Heroes/HQs (generally). The price point for PP goes up substantially. Try it. If one was looking at doing a Kill Team game versus a CoI game, GW tends to win out (largely depends on factions). Kill Team versus Battlebox, PP tends to win out. There are far to many factors involved to be 100% sure on every metric, because of how the different each of the factions work from both companies. I did compare multiple lists with multiple casters PP was still cheaper. I did compare multiple bloggers and types of Ultra marine armies built PP was still cheaper. I did compare whole collections PP was still cheaper.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 20, 2018 16:57:25 GMT
And now reading the last post before this. You guys will talk about quality of models...
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 20, 2018 16:44:54 GMT
The thing is the % of the playable army is entirely subjective, and - shockingly! - points values are set by the same company that is trying to sell you models. A company easily can (and does!) abuse players who share your POV to set exorbitant prices for their models just because they constitute a certain amount of points they themselves made up! If we went by the flawed logic of the "playable army cost", PP could easily say that the average size of a tournament army is now 20% of the current one, raise the price of every model 5 times and still end up with reasonably priced toy soldiers in your eyes. It just doesn't work like that. Are you guys really moving the goal post? You guys state false comments and when it gets right down to it. 1 Divide and conquer tournament ready lists is cheaper by at least 100 bucks then 1 40k army list. Then I'm told well you got to look at whole collections. Okay, I know people who bought entire armies in 40k & AOS say they spend thousands and even when I look at the GW site myself, I stopped counting once the number hit over 3k. I'm on Page 5 for buying ultra marines skipping over all in one box sets, dice/doodads, and only added 1 codex when crunching the numbers I'm at 3,220.25 and still got 5 more pages to go. Doing the same thing for Cygnar (choosing the more expensive variants,skipping all in ones, choosing warroom app versus book, etc) I'm at 2698.99. I mean are you guys seriously saying 3200 < 2700? Okay, lets look at the anticipated goal post move (well if you look at playable models and deals), my local hobby distributor has a deal were you can buy tournament ready armies in miniature games. 40k list that won LVO is 400, Haley3 gravedigger list is 225. 40k extras include a dice bag with 3 dice and a tape measurer. WMH includes 3 dice, measuring sticks, and 2 sets of small, medium, and large bases. What other metric are you guys going to compare? Just because you want to compare the Wild Riders or Dark Riders [or insert cav of choice] and say oh look its 45 bucks cheaper then the comparable cavalry in warmachine. Thats fine but realistically speaking you aren't just bringing the bare minimum. I just asked a buddy of mine who also happens to run a GW store on average when you bring cavalry how many? He explained to me several scenarios but each of them ended costing more then the PP counter part. So even the comment of Charistoph comment of is just wrong. Again, GW is a lot more expensive then PP I've crunched the list based numbers for you, looked at possible deals for you, as well as added up entire collections. GW lost every metric.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 19, 2018 22:34:24 GMT
I'd say you're not looking at the big picture. When you (or at least the people I know in tabletop gaming) collect an army / faction, you don't just buy one list. You collect a faction / race / army unit by unit, and so adding a playable unit to army becomes the relevant metric. Similarly, you are collecting toy soldiers, so again a reasonable metric is toy-by-toy. I crunched those numbers, but clearly they don't fit your narrative. Even if you do live in a region where people only collect specific lists, in Warmachine that means collective a pairing, which still comes out more expensive. -und_ed unded I've shown you numbers based upon the websites directly themselves. You are talking anecdotally. If you want to go that route, the plasma list I wanted to build was 680 bucks and that was including discounts I would get from my local store. The 2nd list I was semi-interested in included Imperial knights, list was damn near 1000. My entire cygnar collection which I've been collecting on and off since mark 1 prime remix is 988 bucks. 2 lists in 40k is close to 2000 bucks versus an entire collection for warmachine plus merc options. Warmachine is still cheaper. I don't know how else to spell it out to you
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 19, 2018 21:52:53 GMT
undedThe narrative that I am talking about is stating 40k and overall GW is cheaper than PP. The truth that its not. I just crunched the numbers for you it turns out PP was cheaper. In some cases by 15 to 100 if you just want to be tournament ready with minimal models possible versus lists I've personally built. If you truly want to expand your army in games like 40k you will spend near 1000s while PP you spend 100s. You talk about adding 1 unit or a model and say that is proof but I ask you to look at the big picture. Look at the entire army built. CharistophI'm going off of these youtubers and bloggers say not based on my own experience. Many videos showcase 100s of dollars worth of changes and while some have overlap still to add in a few key changes will cost a lot. Going off of Gamza's video to finish off that list he starting building he talked about adding Landraider, more tanks, dreadnaughts, and primaris marines. Thats a pretty penny. If I change my Grissel2 list to a madrak1 list thats money too but not as much as I would spend playing 40k. Once you gain a few key pieces in each army in warmachine you can easily change and expand spending less then you would overall for 40k.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 19, 2018 20:40:40 GMT
I mean again it sounds more narrative and not what actually goes on. In the first post, that youtuber talked about shift changes in the meta where folks had to start over on square 1 when building a list as well as Commander Gazma has several videos of 2000 points armies built and discussed small changes he would make. The problem is, each of these changes whether its what you discussed to full fledged army redesign is still a lot more expensive than a typical warmachine/horde change. For reference, my grissel list can swap to madrak1 list with 70 to 100 dollar change while some of the changes discussed in some of these videos is easily 200 to 300 dollar change.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 19, 2018 16:24:47 GMT
Sorry JP, that just doesn't hold. Not when I can use the same models interchangeably in systems, you really have to look at the value offering of the actual toys, and on those ground PP is ludicrously expensive by comparison. -und_ed Again using that video he talked about what additional he would add. He talked about cost effective adds versus straight up power pieces. You are looking at an additional 230 to 400 in additional prices. Even with my Cygnar army and I go use my most expensive list as my second list which is a stryker1 double lancers, stormwall, arlan, jr, squire, and charger is additional 340 bucks(I deducted pieces that crossed over) for trolls I would go beast army for my 2nd army which would be an additional 250 to 300. The total price total for that Ultra marine army can range from 670 dollars (going cost effective pieces) to 810 bucks for 1 army. With the cygnar armies I used (which were the 2 most expensive lists I had) you have 716 dollars and for trollbloods (a faction that is notorious for being expensive with little crossover) 717. So you are either saving 47 dollars to play an army that may not be the best at tournaments but enough to enter to an army that is almost 90 dollars more expensive that may provide you with better results due to them being power pieces. You want to talk about interchangeable pieces? Add in my old Haley2 double lancer build and its additional 40 bucks or maybe Jarl's heavy metal H2 build which would be an additional 50 bucks. I'm still not reaching 800 price tag and yet I got 4 list builds with cygnar. So yes, my point does hold water because I am able to construct multiple lists and still be at or under the price tag for 1 damn 40k power list. So your statement of "PP is ludicrously expensive by comparison" is a very silly statement of someone who believes the narrative versus what is actually true. Also keep in mind and Yes, I am basing this on the bloggers very rarely you continue to play the 1 list in 40k through tournament after tournament. Chances are you making a totally different list to play (whether you want to be competitive or just excited about making another list) so that means you are adding in another 700 dollar price tag.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 19, 2018 4:47:08 GMT
Chaos Knights are 60 dollars american from the gw webstore + shipping I looked on the UK site - since I'm buying from South Africa, I compared what it would cost me. -und_ed Lets talk about whole lists here. One of the bloggers of 40k Commander Gamza talks about starting out an Ultra marine army I think this video was 1000 to 1500 (I believe most tournaments are played with 2000 points so this isn't even a full list) www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfzM1aqobG0 He has the price total in the background and its 420. My Nemo3 list: Nemo, 2 Striders, Dyanmo, Fireflies x3, Lancer, Jr, Lady A & Master H with Jonas, and Arlan - 376 bucks My Grissel2 2/2/2 list: Grissel2, Runebearer, 2 full champ units, 2 bears, 2 fire eaters, bomber, pyre, fell caller, stones max unit w/northkin elder - 417 This is based off of the main website of each of its respective games. This isn't taking into account possible deals you can get online or through brick and mortar stores. Just a base price. 2 Complete armies of 2 different factions still cheaper then a partial army or smaller point game for 40k. Can we stop saying PP is more expensive then GW now?
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 19, 2018 4:09:44 GMT
So from what I can tell here, GW knew they were donating to a childrens' hospital, not just giving the guy money. They weren't piling on to a pity party, but rather his spontaneous charity drive. I'm all for a good GW bashing, but how the hell is that objectionable? If this guy was well-known to host charity drives then it just reinforces that Alex guy is a good dude. If his plan from the beginning was to take whatever winnings or special things he gets from winning LVO and donating it again reinforces the same thing. Keep in mind, you are basing it on the information here and while I could have skipped over that in the video or maybe in the other public post GW made that the other guy linked its simply because I honestly didn't notice it. Its true that negative news often outweighs the positive to only give one perception and not the whole picture. However, even then GW going, "yeah we know how shitty our rules are so we will donate to him anyways" is a really bad move as I explained earlier regardless. If they said "Hey, we know what our rules state but after watching LVO we decided to address some concerns and to showcase that we value sportsmanship over WAAC, we will donate to Alex's charity" would have set an entirely different precedence.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 18, 2018 18:29:06 GMT
What is absurd is that GW's toys are now cheaper than PP's. That's a real issue. -und_ed This is completely false. PP is still cheaper then GW. I wanted to build a plasma style ultra marine list, costed me near 700 bucks when it was done. The 4 lists I play competitively in cygnar is alittle over 700. The 3 lists I been building for trollbloods is near 300.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 15, 2018 16:04:42 GMT
I think lovehugs touched on a little part of why it’s gone so quiet. Pagani said in the second week update that any wishlisting would get you banned on the spot. It stopped me from posting anything there. They’re pulling that nonsense again where they want feedback but only if it’s positive. There are some serious flaws in the basic Khador design that I think need to be addressed and if not in the CID then where? My understanding is that the CID was created (at least in part) to take the negativity and criticism off of their forum and out of view of the general public. But they need to develop thicker skin and actually either debate with their consumers or further explain their rationale on why a particular model is designed that specific way. Right now we are kind of shooting in the dark as to what their design criteria is and their (mostly) cryptic one sentence responses don’t help that much. I think you are so far off base on the tone of this response (and others who agree with it) that if you were a bomber, you just bombed the wrong town. Relentlessly people were asking for outrageous buffs or flat out denying something was overpowered. You had folks (despite report after report showing) supression tanker was just okay not overpowered. You have folks pester PP (as it happens in all CID sessions I admit) to place more things on CID instead of focusing on MOW. You had people create impossible scenarios to fish for buff towards MOW instead of placing them in a realistic scenario then have the nerve to tell PP they don't know what they are doing. Its okay to talk about the weakness of your faction. But the main thing they are looking for (and wanting your help with) is addressing the certain things they place on the table. They said many times Kovniks are exactly were they want them to be yet in this thread you have a few people asking for a +2 aura speed buff. Many folks said Sorscha3 was too slow therefore not useable yet Pagani pointed out her useful nature and the fluff reason behind it (as well as you had many battle reports showing how efficient and strong she is). Its not PP that needs thicker skin, its you people need to come down a few notches on your expectations. Because a lot of what you guys ask for is unrealistic.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Feb 14, 2018 20:27:31 GMT
Without the full details (and hell if I'm gonna trust a video to dish them out) its hard to say who to side with. I mean there's a difference between holding your opponent to the rules and being a rules shark. The former is good, solid, fair play. The second is deliberately hawking your opponent on shit and hounding them on every little detail. Ones just trying to keep a level playing field and the other is rules lawyering your opponent to death and the difference is really hard to tell without sitting there watching the entire event in the moment. The 2nd video link contains the entire finals game but on the side you can watch the other game mentioned in the first description in full. You can make your choice by watching it directly.
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