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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 6, 2017 18:16:23 GMT
So jpgreat1 and I were talking about Nemo1 in the Nemo2 thread. This is the abbreviated exchange... jpgreat1: SnarlyYow: jpgreat1 SnarlyYow My point is pretty simple: Nemo1 is not talked about but I think he belongs in the upper echelon of this faction, a seat at the table with the best casters this faction has to offer. This faction currently has 21 (22?) casters and this faction also has some of the strongest casters in the game. So when I say Nemo1 is in the top 6 or 7, or even top 10 in Cygnar, it's saying quite a lot. When I'm saying he deserves a mention when we're talking about Haley2, Haley3, Stryker2, Siege2, Caine3...etc. I want to be very clear, he's not some weird middle of the pack caster like Maddox, Kraye, or Darius; those situational but very playable casters that are beloved. Nor is he a meta answer, like Stryker1 or Siege1, casters who have very specific tools to deal with a present problem in the current state of WMH. He's none of that. His toolkit doesn't answer meta problems as they sway and shift, nor is he a powerful one-trick like Nemo3 or Caine3, his toolkit is static and, I believe, will remain relevant for a long period of time. |
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Post by greenjello on Dec 6, 2017 19:06:03 GMT
I like Nemo1, but everytime I've played him I've had a similar outcome.
Turn 1) Get a good setup
Turn 2) Put the enemy on the ropes
Turn 3) Nemo1 is shot down in a blaze of glory.
Old man stats are his downfall. Be sure you bring the TAC squad with him. Their ability to generate smoke clouds magically is perfect for him.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313 
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Post by gmonkey on Dec 6, 2017 19:17:50 GMT
Nemo1 is my absolute favorite caster, but the first 5-6 times I played him I got assassinated. One thing he teaches you is how to protect your caster, because this guy has serious old man stats.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 6, 2017 20:03:00 GMT
For me his feat is just a bit too heavily geared towards one side of the game to make him attractive enough in a list pair
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xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Dec 6, 2017 20:18:39 GMT
I loved playing Nemo 1. My major issue was trying to find who to pair him with. I never felt like I could get it right. While his feat is good against Warmachine it is still good into Horde. POW 14 (16) that you can boost and will likely have the focus to boost makes short work of lessers and light warbeasts. When boosting you can do close to half damage to a Scarsfell at dice plus 1. A smaller issue I had with him is that I always felt like his 11 Focus was not enough. I always wanted to do something more with it.  |
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 6, 2017 20:30:59 GMT
I like Nemo1, but everytime I've played him I've had a similar outcome. Turn 1) Get a good setup Turn 2) Put the enemy on the ropes Turn 3) Nemo1 is shot down in a blaze of glory. Old man stats are his downfall. Be sure you bring the TAC squad with him. Their ability to generate smoke clouds magically is perfect for him. I just don't know how you're getting him killed. In Markiii this is your experience? It's not mine. He's super survivable. He can stay far back, camp a bunch, combine Arcane Shield and Deflection making him 14/20 camping, like, 3? I've thrown him into Lilly3 and Caine3 and Sloan and Gunnbjorn and just come out on top every time. I really feel like if you're getting him shot down you're playing him all wrong. I guess. For me it's more Voltaic Snare doesn't work against Warbeasts. The feat is fine. But he can play into Hordes. Legion beasts don't want Dice -1 auto-hitting attacks. Nor does Circle. I dunno, my Nemo1 list put, I think, 26 focus on the table every turn. So I always hear "he has old man stats and just dies. But that isn't my experience. A combination of staying far back, Deflection and Arcane Shield, and camping make him very survivable into gun lines. The one thing he prolly doesn't want to see is Cavalry, I dropped him into two units of Vengers and just had a hell of a time. If someone wants to say they've played him a ton in MKiii and he's just died on them again and again I'll listen to it. But that is simply not my experience, at all. Not at all. |
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 6, 2017 20:58:43 GMT
So to me, I think you are being very generous saying he's rank 6 or 7. Even if were to agree with him being rank 6 or 7, you would have huge gaps of useful abilities/tools that the higher set of casters can take advantage of that Nemo1 just doesn't do. As you said, "his toolkit is static" which while good in some situations is a detriment in many others.
Now to my first point, I would say (and you probably agree) cygnar's best 6 casters are (in no particular order) Haley3, Haley2, Caine3, Stryker1, Kara, and Nemo3. But I would say the next best 5 casters would be (again in no particular order) Stryker2, Stryker3, Siege2, Maddox, and Kraye. At this point, we hit the halfway mark and I think a few more casters like Darius, Caine1, and Siege1 are all stronger then Nemo1. So even if you don't agree with the next 5 after the top 6 you can't seriously think that Nemo1 has a stronger damage output then Stryker3, Stryker2, or Siege2 along with having a better personal threat presence. You can't say Nemo1 threat extensions are better then Kraye, Maddox, or Siege2 (although I know Siege is mainly trencher infantry). And all of those 5 casters have stronger feats. I am not saying Nemo1 feat is unusable but its way too niche. Pow 14 auto-hitting feat is nice but in some cases, you need to boost in order to disrupt jacks. To me, if Nemo1 got a rework to be the anti-battle group caster as oppose to being the anti-warjack caster I feel he would be a lot better.
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Post by greenjello on Dec 6, 2017 21:57:12 GMT
I like Nemo1, but everytime I've played him I've had a similar outcome. Turn 1) Get a good setup Turn 2) Put the enemy on the ropes Turn 3) Nemo1 is shot down in a blaze of glory. Old man stats are his downfall. Be sure you bring the TAC squad with him. Their ability to generate smoke clouds magically is perfect for him. I just don't know how you're getting him killed. In Markiii this is your experience? It's not mine. He's super survivable. He can stay far back, camp a bunch, combine Arcane Shield and Deflection making him 14/20 camping, like, 3? I've thrown him into Lilly3 and Caine3 and Sloan and Gunnbjorn and just come out on top every time. I really feel like if you're getting him shot down you're playing him all wrong. Like I said, I really like Nemo1, he's got a lot of cool stuff going on, his arcane accumulator which goes to 11 is pretty unique. However, he's got some limitations, like being very Warmachine focused, and inviting assassination. I think with all his tech, he's got a high skill ceiling, it's not as clear to me that he's worth investing the time to really learn. I'd love to see somebody take some major tournaments with him, but it seems unlikely to be me. Maybe you'll do it? Good Luck! |
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 7, 2017 0:50:36 GMT
So to me, I think you are being very generous saying he's rank 6 or 7. Even if were to agree with him being rank 6 or 7, you would have huge gaps of useful abilities/tools that the higher set of casters can take advantage of that Nemo1 just doesn't do. As you said, "his toolkit is static" which while good in some situations is a detriment in many others. Now to my first point, I would say (and you probably agree) cygnar's best 6 casters are (in no particular order) Haley3, Haley2, Caine3, Stryker1, Kara, and Nemo3. But I would say the next best 5 casters would be (again in no particular order) Stryker2, Stryker3, Siege2, Maddox, and Kraye. At this point, we hit the halfway mark and I think a few more casters like Darius, Caine1, and Siege1 are all stronger then Nemo1. So even if you don't agree with the next 5 after the top 6 you can't seriously think that Nemo1 has a stronger damage output then Stryker3, Stryker2, or Siege2 along with having a better personal threat presence. You can't say Nemo1 threat extensions are better then Kraye, Maddox, or Siege2 (although I know Siege is mainly trencher infantry). And all of those 5 casters have stronger feats. I am not saying Nemo1 feat is unusable but its way too niche. Pow 14 auto-hitting feat is nice but in some cases, you need to boost in order to disrupt jacks. To me, if Nemo1 got a rework to be the anti-battle group caster as oppose to being the anti-warjack caster I feel he would be a lot better. Well, first, I disagree with your list of casters better than Nemo1. Stryker3? No. Absolutely not. Stryker1? Maybe. Darius? No. Caine1 and Siege1 (though the latter has decent ghost fleet play) no. ANd I would disagree that Maddox or Kraye are stronger than Nemo1 (though I've not played the latter, and plenty of the former.) And maybe the meta has shifted enough with SR2017 that Nemo1 heavy metal isn't really viable, I'm seeing changes in the meta that might prove that to be true. But my best win rate in MKiii is with Nemo1. And I like him more than Nemo3 a bunch, mostly because you do not telegraph your cygnar drop nearly as much. I've not seen Siege2 win any events yet but, yeah, Fury and the feat seem really solid. And Nemo1 does out threat Maddox, by quite a bit, Locomotion is really strong and available every turn. Like I've said, I've played him a lot and I'm sort of perplexed by so many ideas about him, and I've not seen many people play him. For me it was to cover Haley2's weaknessess into Legion, Retribution, Convergence, and the mirror match; all matchups he handles with aplomb. With Haley3 now the dominate caster I think the Retribution matchup is less of a concern, and with the new Convergence theme Nemo1's play into that isn't as decent. The idea that he dies is a hold over from MKii. Nemo1 is very, very survivable. It's pretty rare that he's ever in a position to die. It just doesn't happen. |
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 7, 2017 2:51:50 GMT
I have to say I've also played him a lot. I know a few other people made comments about his survivability but I agree with you on his defensive stats. Technically against range attacks with AS & Deflection, he is ARM 20 which is hard to pierce by most non-blessed fire power. But to point out some things here: I think this is the biggest (?)issue(?) right here. Now why I put it in (?), is because the way I read that is you are admitting that his sets of tools aren't that useful due to SR17 and if you are admitting that why still hold him of high value? To me, if we are discussing casters strengths and weaknesses considering how they fair in the meta talking about how they will do in SR17 would be apart of that. Stryker3 can definitely put a hurting through cycling Fury (admittingly this works better on infantry then jacks) and his feat. With Escort his entire battlegroup speed is increased for 2 versus the 3 to 6 to speed up by 1 more. Granted a Stryker3 list is built differently than a Nemo1 list but even then Stryker3 lists are better suited to tackle a bigger variety of playstyles then Nemo1 would be simply due to how SR17 works. Stryker1 is considered by in large one of our best casters since MK3. This is backed up by the bountiful wins brought to Cygnar by Patrick Dunford and Jarle Svengald. In the cygnar forums ran by Jarle I had a small battle report at 1 convention were I was literally beating opponents without losing a single model in all my games but 1. In SR16 double colossal was dominate and in SR17 Storm Division with him is a powerful all-comers list. Darius attrition game is definitely a lot better then you give him credit for. Between repair, refuge, his feat, and crane he can cycle warjacks a lot better than Nemo1. He has a pretty sneaky assassination vector for low def casters by running a warjack up and using jackhammer. Darius is also pretty tanky if you can give him AS and he camps as well. I mean you answered this question on your own. The meta against certain factions are needing more and more magic weapons and ways to cut down infantry by the dozens. Caine1 and Siege1 answers this question. Having played all 3 with Kraye being my most played I can tell you that you are not taking into account how useful pathfinder is. Kraye re-work makes him really powerful as far as mobility. The ability to charge something getting boosted attack, kill something, then Repo 5 away is a big middle finger to the enemy (even more so if your a centurion and can use polarity field). Lets not discount Counter Measures and Admonition. Maddox is pretty linear play style (I would say most battle box casters are) but her linear style also works in her favor. Her Arcane Shield + Tough spell (sorry im at work and the spell name isn't coming to me) is bonkers good as well as Onslaught. Snipe is also a useful spell (although out of place) to have in our faction as a whole. Her feat is definitely useful to clear a zone or just get that extra oomph you need when you attack something in melee. As far as exact match ups you say you were using Nemo1 to cover Haley2 weakness (is this pre-nerf haley2 which had a weakness dependent on the list you built?) because if so you were cructching hard on something that was overpowered then building a not so well-practiced against list that may have thrown some opponents off. Don't get me wrong thats a good idea but can this work over and over again at conventions against big name players? |
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Post by greenjello on Dec 7, 2017 3:29:19 GMT
The idea that he dies is a hold over from MKii. Nemo1 is very, very survivable. It's pretty rare that he's ever in a position to die. It just doesn't happen. Based on? He's little changed from mkII. He's got +1 ARM, and can now remove 5 points of damage for each point of fury. Jr and his Arcane Shield have been part of the game since mid-way through mkI. One of the biggest boosts he's gotten was the release of the TAC. But with mkIII, the TAC have gone down in survivability, weakening Nemo1 as well. |
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 7, 2017 4:56:27 GMT
The idea that he dies is a hold over from MKii. Nemo1 is very, very survivable. It's pretty rare that he's ever in a position to die. It just doesn't happen. Based on? He's little changed from mkII. He's got +1 ARM, and can now remove 5 points of damage for each point of fury. Jr and his Arcane Shield have been part of the game since mid-way through mkI. One of the biggest boosts he's gotten was the release of the TAC. But with mkIII, the TAC have gone down in survivability, weakening Nemo1 as well. So you haven't played him? I'm telling you, he doesn't die like he did in mkii. And here's why, mkii deflection didn't work on jacks, so you rarely cast it. He also spent more of his stack on his warjacks and couldn't really camp. Here's the thing, MKIII Decel is better for him than mkii deflection ever was because it affects his jacks, so you can cast it. TAC do not matter, I do not miss them at all. He has all the spell slingers he needs between Jr., Jakes, Arlan, and animi. 14/20 camping 3 and being way far back are fantastic for him. Voltaic Snare costs 2 and shuts down colossals. He doesn't die easily, not that casters do much anyway in MKIII or 2017 SR. You can believe it or not, but he's hard as he'll to kill and the vicious gunlines you see on the wmh side of the game he eats alive. He'll play into Sloan and Caine3 and basically cannot lose and cannot die. I do think he could play in SR2017 but you'll prolly want to play him out of heavy metal. No matter, he's prolly great in Storm division because Decel is good on lances. |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Dec 7, 2017 11:31:39 GMT
Nemo 1 seems like a noob stomper. He takes a bunch of Cygnar heavies and buffs them slightly in a few directions. He has no real feat in most matchups (and is at best a mediocre time walk).
But he doesn't do that much. He has a lot of focus but almost all of his abilities are inefficient. Allocating 4 is alright, but its not like nemo 3, you need to actually allocate more to get use. Locomotion is pretty much the most inefficient movement spell in the game.
Couple this with cygnar heavies who are by and large, average and I don't see a great caster forming outside of jank.
Great jack Casters are able to efficiently run multiple jacks and generally push things beyond average. Kraye is a great jack caster because he buffs movement to a huge degree, accuracy to a huge degree but also brings things that the jacks couldn't otherwise do such as abuse pathfinder, repo and admo.
Kraye has his problems but he is a good jack caster. Nemo 1 is an inefficient buff machine with no tempo and mediocre control. Replace voltaic snare with magnetic hold and locomotion with an efficient spell like road to war and we are beginning to see something happen.
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Post by greenjello on Dec 7, 2017 14:53:57 GMT
And here's why, mkii deflection didn't work on jacks, so you rarely cast it. Here's the thing, MKIII Decel is better for him than mkii deflection ever was because it affects his jacks, so you can cast it. TAC do not matter, I do not miss them at all. He has all the spell slingers he needs between Jr., Jakes, Arlan, and animi. Voltaic Snare costs 2 and shuts down colossals. None of that has changed significantly. Decel is a bit better to cast in mkIII because you can no longer just sit on the two focus. In MKII it was often better to just camp the focus, since it was +2 ARM against everything. Voltaic Snare has always shut down colossals, though it is cheaper now. Sounds like you don't have anything new, which is disappointing, I really want him to be better. I love the idea of getting 11 focus to play with. Anyway, maybe you're getting better match ups, or you're a better player than I am. |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Dec 7, 2017 15:03:32 GMT
Voltaic snare doesn't shut down colossals, it stops them charging. They can still shoot and walk with no problem.
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