Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Jun 25, 2017 20:49:21 GMT
Bringing the title question into context; I've been a little disappointed with the staying power and output of colossals in the game, vs their cost and relative board presence (read, size). A lot of the numbers below are relative to my experience and understanding rather than a set amount, so if it's different to how it looks to your faction, please bear that in mind.
1) Their box numbers tend to be something like one and 3/4 heavy warjacks in value (roughly 34 health for a heavy warjack, 60 health on a colossal), while their base size is much larger, but their melee output increases by about 2-4 points in strength on average.
2) Their points is also quite high relatively speaking. If you take an average cost of a colossal, its close to about 2 and a bit heavy warjacks (if you take the average heavy to be about 14 ish) points.
3) Realistically, their output is generally 4 ranged attacks (at varying pow/effects) or 5 melee attacks (on a full focus stat) not charging.
I'm really interested to hear what the general 'feel' is for them at the moment. Are they resilient enough vs their cost? Is their output high enough? Are they performing as expected?
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 25, 2017 22:14:27 GMT
While most of that isn't true for Trolls.
The Mountain king is absolutely amazing. He shoots, buffs the army, creates support pieces, offer control in the form of deafen and is a great attrition and assassination piece.
The Glacier King, I think it suffers from having a Range 12 Gun with an auto d3 knockback. It has a less useful animus, offer decent control options and helps the force less. That said others like it.
The Sea king feels overcosted but I think Troll players need to try it more!
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Post by Erythro on Jun 25, 2017 22:41:19 GMT
Circle wise The woldwrath has game with khromac2. It's pretty synergistic. Though still needs the staple warp wolves to be good The storm raptor is .... a pretty looking model
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 25, 2017 23:08:31 GMT
Cygnar!
Stormwall and Hurricane synergize excellently with the faction. Snipe or Arcane Shield make them very happy.
Rhulic!
You're mostly better served taking drillers and bunnies than with the earthbreaker.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 26, 2017 2:29:47 GMT
On the Legion side, the Blightbringer is just waiting for an infantry theme that can include it. The Archangel meanwhile is a decent, if expensive, multi-role beast that can shoot and fight reasonably well with good mobility to boot.
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Post by maximumhippo on Jun 26, 2017 4:03:54 GMT
Legion: Archangel has a place with some warlocks. Blightbringer is great fun with Kallus1 but thats about it. Themes have sort of forced that to be a non-option.
Khador: Victor is generally considered worse than Conquest, and Conquest only sees play with casters who specifically want only one jack. Casters like Vlad2 or Sorscha1.
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Post by grabsnikk on Jun 26, 2017 4:19:10 GMT
The Mountain King is fantastic, the Glacier King just needs the autopush on its gun to be optional but otherwise is pretty decent.
The Sea King is just too overcosted. I played it several times and it just doesnt have the damage output or utility to justify its absurd points cost. Hopefully CID can fix this in the future.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 26, 2017 5:58:21 GMT
Overall, Colossals are fine. Certain ones like the Stormwall are a little too strong. Some like the Judicator are a little below the curve. But their general characteristics are fine.
Gargantuans need a little help.
The Sea King is definitely way too expensive, though beasts in general also have that problem. I think they really overvalued that animus.
Gargantuans in general are overpriced because they don't generate the fury of the same number of beasts, and are way squishier than their points demand. Some questionable Mat/Rat choices too.
Storm Raptor either needs some major stat boosts+more health OR it needs to be massively cheaper. It could have a nice niche as a very cheap colossal at around 30 points.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Jun 26, 2017 6:28:41 GMT
It's a weird world when everyone seems to love the Mountain King now. But a better one.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 26, 2017 6:50:24 GMT
Overall, Colossals are fine. Certain ones like the Stormwall are a little too strong. Some like the Judicator are a little below the curve. But their general characteristics are fine. Gargantuans need a little help. The Sea King is definitely way too expensive, though beasts in general also have that problem. I think they really overvalued that animus. Gargantuans in general are overpriced because they don't generate the fury of the same number of beasts, and are way squishier than their points demand. Some questionable Mat/Rat choices too. Storm Raptor either needs some major stat boosts+more health OR it needs to be massively cheaper. It could have a nice niche as a very cheap colossal at around 30 points. The Stormwall is among the weakest hitting colossals in the game while being generally one of the most expensive. They are very good but not too strong at all.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 26, 2017 7:01:46 GMT
Bringing the title question into context; I've been a little disappointed with the staying power and output of colossals in the game, vs their cost and relative board presence (read, size). A lot of the numbers below are relative to my experience and understanding rather than a set amount, so if it's different to how it looks to your faction, please bear that in mind. 1) Their box numbers tend to be something like one and 3/4 heavy warjacks in value (roughly 34 health for a heavy warjack, 60 health on a colossal), while their base size is much larger, but their melee output increases by about 2-4 points in strength on average. 2) Their points is also quite high relatively speaking. If you take an average cost of a colossal, its close to about 2 and a bit heavy warjacks (if you take the average heavy to be about 14 ish) points. 3) Realistically, their output is generally 4 ranged attacks (at varying pow/effects) or 5 melee attacks (on a full focus stat) not charging. I'm really interested to hear what the general 'feel' is for them at the moment. Are they resilient enough vs their cost? Is their output high enough? Are they performing as expected? Gargantuans tend to have a stat issue more easily because of the Fury system and having to compete with larger battlegroups, but the biggest factor in whether a Colossal or Gargantuan is good enough is rarely its cost, boxes or output - it's whether they have a particular synergy with one or more strong casters, whether they fit in a theme, and whether the faction doesn't have better regular jacks.
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Jun 26, 2017 7:36:12 GMT
While it is true that the cost-to-boxes ratio seems to favour two Heavies over one Colossal, remember that it is much harder to one-round a Colossal. In general, I find that if Colossals survive into the late game, they become exceeding difficult to deal with.
I think Cygnar and Convergence brings their Colossals all the time (at least one list in a two-list pair has one). Circle, Skorne, Retribution, Cryx, Mercenaries, and Trollbloods bring theirs in certain lists (for Circle that's Woldwrath and never Storm Raptor). Khador, Protectorate, and Legion rarely bring theirs (at least locally) although I saw a lot of Blightbringers at the beginning of Mk3.
So, all in all, I'd say that they are at least viable in the right list (which is true about most models, really). Some individual pieces may still need adjustments to become decently popular (say, Storm Raptor, Judicator, Sea King). I certainly feel the lack of a Gargantuan option when playing Minions.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 26, 2017 8:47:27 GMT
Most good colossals shoot more than 2 heavies. Take the Stormwall, it shoots 2xRNG 14/POW15 (A bit under 2 Defenders) then it shoots 2xD3 RNG10/POW10 (2 sentinels.)... Then it's about pod, huge base immunities, buffs/debuffs, boxes and melee.
I find it amusing that the WWrath is played (I play him as well), he his POW 19 (Low), has ARM 20 (Max on a gargant/colossal), avg boxes (Considering gargant/colossal), has 1(!!!!!) ranged attack, an animus that cannot possibly benefit him but because he has sacred ward (and a few cool other cool rules) and circle has good armor buffs he sees the table while some with a lot more shooting don't.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Jun 26, 2017 10:04:53 GMT
While it is true that the cost-to-boxes ratio seems to favour two Heavies over one Colossal, remember that it is much harder to one-round a Colossal. In general, I find that if Colossals survive into the late game, they become exceeding difficult to deal with. I think Cygnar and Convergence brings their Colossals all the time (at least one list in a two-list pair has one). Circle, Skorne, Retribution, Cryx, Mercenaries, and Trollbloods bring theirs in certain lists (for Circle that's Woldwrath and never Storm Raptor). Khador, Protectorate, and Legion rarely bring theirs (at least locally) although I saw a lot of Blightbringers at the beginning of Mk3. So, all in all, I'd say that they are at least viable in the right list (which is true about most models, really). Some individual pieces may still need adjustments to become decently popular (say, Storm Raptor, Judicator, Sea King). I certainly feel the lack of a Gargantuan option when playing Minions. I'd probably agree with you on the difficulty in removal, if the judicator had the tenacity to hang on until the late game. I tend to play forward with my colossals which leads to them being removed too quickly.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 26, 2017 13:13:06 GMT
Hordes is just always second fiddle. None of the Gargantuans have the number of guns and special rules as colossals. What little compensation we have seems to be movement (I think most Gargs are faster then all the Colossals)
Archangel is nice, variable rate of fire is a terrible joke that I wish wasn't true. When Colossals get 2d3 Plus a big gun, plus kill shot, and yada yada yada. It's woefully under powered in terms of it's shooting game (damage wise). In melee it's passable, for a heavy warbeast. It comes in just one point of P+S more than a carnivean and the same fury stat and Mat. But it still falls down like a house of cards at the slightest breeze. (A Pureblood under synergy alone warped ghostly and walked through a house to one-round it) It's animus is an insult.
The Blightbringer is the salt in the wound. We have to pay 38 points to buff infantry to marginally good. Half your list has to go to giving infantry a +2str/+2arm when our infantry's average armor is 13, it does hardly nothing for survivability. So after all the infantry is gone to unboosted pow 10s, we're left with a 38 point dead weight. It's gun is Rof1, speed 4 means it's not going to make it to melee anytime soon and is easily walked away from. It's sickening. Add to that our only "infantry theme" right now doesn't allow it. Also, absolutely useless animus.
Edit: I should clarify. I think that both Legion Gargs are gimped. There are a ton of possibilities that they could get that would make them amazing. But at the moment they are serviceable. I'm literally testing and perfecting two lists with the Blight bringer. I hate how much it costs and how little it does. But the saving grace is that it's buff applies to casters, and that's what I'm trying to leverage. Getting some real work done with our scary brute-force casters.
@octavius - The Stormwall is absolutely amazing. With your stupid cheap arcane shield on-a-stick, it's disgusting. It's got guns to blow up heavies and a stupid 10 inch lightning fence to clear infantry. It's another perfect package in a faction of "we do everything well". I swear you need to play another faction (preferably a hordes faction) for a year and see just how good Cygnar has it.
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