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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 26, 2017 20:46:57 GMT
I play Cygnar, so stop saying that this is just a problem of anti-Cygnar bias. I rarely see AS go on Cygnar infantry, so that's a red herring. It goes on Centurions, Storm Lances, and Stormwalls, occasionally on a Stormclad. I've rarely seen it go on anything else. The issue is not whether ARM 18(21 with minifeat) Stormblades are OP - they're clearly not. The question is whether ARM 22 Stormwalls, 24 Centurions, and 20 Stormlances are OP. completely different issue. And Cygnar has a problem with delivery, yes...but the best infantry-clearing gunlines are all in Cygnar, so it's kind of a circular problem you've got going there. When I play my Cygnar infantry, it's worst matchup by far is the Cygnar mirror. Jr is a problem for Cygnar, purely because of how available he is. I'd like (at the very least) to see him get cut out of Storm Division, which he has no thematic connection to, whatsoever. For a start. I don't see anything that counters my argument in my post. Actually, you seem to confirm it. Sure, AS goes on jacks usually, exactly because, even with AS, most cygnar infantry isn't worth as much as jacks. And if you remove JR from Storm Division, it will become even more a Stormlances and Stormlances only theme. At least now sometimes it is possible to play a Maddox list with Stormblades, without AS I seriously doubt you will ever see that (Let alone Stormguards). I'll gladly see AS removed if all the jacks got +1 ARM and all the melee infantry got +2 ARM on the main stats, but since we are not in dreamland, AS is going to stay, otherwise you will not see any cygnar infantry ever. On if ARM 22 Stormwalls are OP, I don't think so. They are extremely good to be sure, but in my experience, I often prefer to take multiple jacks than an AS Stormwall, so I don't see it as that problematic. That said, I think we should focus back on the generic argument of Gargossals instead of JR, as Cryptix says. Actually, it does - if you're not actually putting AS on your infantry, it's completely irrelevant to talk about how necessary it is to deliver said infantry. If it's so necessary to deliver infantry, then maybe it should become a warrior model/unit only buff? Then we'd see it get put on stormblades, maybe. Cygnar Jacks already have acceptable statlines. Compare them (12/18, 11/19) to Cryx (13/17), Khador (10/20) and Ret (12/18, 11/19) and they're not even remotely below curve, and a few of them are above it (anything with a shield, for instance.) They don't need arcane shield to compete, they want it, and they've had the ability to get it for as long as Cygnar has been a thing. Also, your suggestion that Cygnar infantry should get +2 Arm is just ludicrous. Sentinels are ARM 15+Wall of Steel, and are routinely called out as one of the best infantry units in the game. I could see Arm 16 Stormblades, but Arm 19 Storm Lances? no. Just no.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 26, 2017 22:04:24 GMT
I believe stormblades might come back with siege 2. I've been trying a list with 2 units of blades, no junior. Advance move and feat makes them threat absurd distances at absurd powers. Often your opponent gets a single turn to shoot at them.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jun 26, 2017 22:55:26 GMT
I believe stormblades might come back with siege 2. I've been trying a list with 2 units of blades, no junior. Advance move and feat makes them threat absurd distances at absurd powers. Often your opponent gets a single turn to shoot at them. In SR17 they sure can sit back and shoot. I'm guessing your list also has no pathfinder? Good thing I can toss two aoe4 rough terrain right on top of them.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 26, 2017 23:50:30 GMT
I believe stormblades might come back with siege 2. I've been trying a list with 2 units of blades, no junior. Advance move and feat makes them threat absurd distances at absurd powers. Often your opponent gets a single turn to shoot at them. In SR17 they sure can sit back and shoot. I'm guessing your list also has no pathfinder? Good thing I can toss two aoe4 rough terrain right on top of them. "Not against me" he said confidently, leaning back, sure his opponent will walk right into his plans like an idiot. Sure thing.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 23:52:02 GMT
In SR17 they sure can sit back and shoot. I'm guessing your list also has no pathfinder? Good thing I can toss two aoe4 rough terrain right on top of them. "Not against me" he said confidently, leaning back, sure his opponent will walk right into his plans like an idiot. Sure thing. *lights cigar* *twirls mustache*
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jun 27, 2017 0:02:58 GMT
In SR17 they sure can sit back and shoot. I'm guessing your list also has no pathfinder? Good thing I can toss two aoe4 rough terrain right on top of them. "Not against me" he said confidently, leaning back, sure his opponent will walk right into his plans like an idiot. Sure thing. I don't always comment on octavius posts, but when I do... I can always expect him to throw civil discourse out the window.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 27, 2017 0:11:45 GMT
Watch it. My slug gun is ready.
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Post by Demeritus on Jun 27, 2017 2:22:58 GMT
On topic for the question. I feel they are 50/50. In warmachine it feels like the 2nd wave of colossals (overall) are stronger than the first whereas with hordes it seems like their first wave of gargantuans are stronger than the second.
I am not a Hordes player so anything I say about Hordes is based on just watching games at my store so do not take this as me saying everything is ok or whatever because I honestly do not know.
For the WM ones they were designed to deal with the high def jam infantry spam that was very prevalent but with it being more jack spam, their tools feel a bit weak for the current environment. The Hordes ones got retooled with mk3 in mind so it seems like they are better at handling combined arms.
I would like to see Colossals/Gargantuans hit CID because I feel like they could overall use a bump in survival capabilities (especially considering they were touted as being worth 3-4x a normal jack and many don't quite hit that spot) as well as damage output into a higher armour environment.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 27, 2017 7:35:41 GMT
"Not against me" he said confidently, leaning back, sure his opponent will walk right into his plans like an idiot. Sure thing. I don't always comment on octavius posts, but when I do... I can always expect him to throw civil discourse out the window. You acted really smug for no reason. I made a joke, apparently that is the end of civil discourse as we know it. I mean, if you aren't careful pp will take your confident predictions to heart and cygnar will recieve more buffs.
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Jun 27, 2017 8:11:47 GMT
Blightbringer is quite close being nice. The thing he needs if infantry with good arm value. But all ogruns and Legionares would need some love too. Other issue is no theme he can play with infantry. Maybe ogrun theme, who knows I really like him with Fyanna double swordsmen. He buffs list and is awesome late game piece with Fury on it. Maybe armor 20? The thing that hurt the most is crappy animus on both Blighty and Archangel. When you play them you forgot they even have on. Archangel one is usable but not epic enough Something impact-full like desert hydra would be great.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jun 27, 2017 10:58:48 GMT
I don't always comment on octavius posts, but when I do... I can always expect him to throw civil discourse out the window. You acted really smug for no reason. I made a joke, apparently that is the end of civil discourse as we know it. I mean, if you aren't careful pp will take your confident predictions to heart and cygnar will recieve more buffs. I wasn't being smug. I was mearly speculating that since you mentioned storm division that you didn't have pathfinder on a stick ( i didnt seem siege2 final form but i dont think he has it). I then pointed out that between new terrain rules and ways for people to generate rough terrain your list might not be as fast as you think. Im done trying to discuss matters of this game with you.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 27, 2017 11:07:46 GMT
I believe stormblades might come back with siege 2. I've been trying a list with 2 units of blades, no junior. Advance move and feat makes them threat absurd distances at absurd powers. Often your opponent gets a single turn to shoot at them.
Not a personal attack. At all.
I'm not sure if it's related to the strong ranged game Cygnar has or just how the faction plays... This comment on where it is possible to use Stormblades shows a lot of what I read Cygnar related, ie, if it's not absurd threat its not good.
I await flashbacks of the time when H2 gave deadeye to a bunch of stormblades who proceded to blast a heavy away with boosted RAT 7(?), POW 14 guns from DPS+3"+6" and call themselves heavy melee infantry. At least it won't be under H2's feat
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 27, 2017 11:48:15 GMT
I believe stormblades might come back with siege 2. I've been trying a list with 2 units of blades, no junior. Advance move and feat makes them threat absurd distances at absurd powers. Often your opponent gets a single turn to shoot at them.
Not a personal attack. At all.
I'm not sure if it's related to the strong ranged game Cygnar has or just how the faction plays... This comment on where it is possible to use Stormblades shows a lot of what I read Cygnar related, ie, if it's not absurd threat its not good.
I await flashbacks of the time when H2 gave deadeye to a bunch of stormblades who proceded to blast a heavy away with boosted RAT 7(?), POW 14 guns from DPS+3"+6" and call themselves heavy melee infantry. At least it won't be under H2's feat
Bwahahahahahaha leave it to Cygnar to be like here's my heavy infantry/cavalry that are so great at being heavy infantry /cavalry.... so we'll shoot you of the table.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 27, 2017 13:02:47 GMT
You acted really smug for no reason. I made a joke, apparently that is the end of civil discourse as we know it. I mean, if you aren't careful pp will take your confident predictions to heart and cygnar will recieve more buffs. I wasn't being smug. I was mearly speculating that since you mentioned storm division that you didn't have pathfinder on a stick ( i didnt seem siege2 final form but i dont think he has it). I then pointed out that between new terrain rules and ways for people to generate rough terrain your list might not be as fast as you think. Im done trying to discuss matters of this game with you. It *really* seemed like you were trying to pick a fight for no reason. Like yes, terrain exists and it sucks if you can't ignore it but after playing him a few times with this list I've found that a 3" walk before you charge is really good at getting around terrain when you need it. His feat can go some of the way of ignoring pathfinder concerns.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 27, 2017 13:04:28 GMT
I believe stormblades might come back with siege 2. I've been trying a list with 2 units of blades, no junior. Advance move and feat makes them threat absurd distances at absurd powers. Often your opponent gets a single turn to shoot at them.
Not a personal attack. At all.
I'm not sure if it's related to the strong ranged game Cygnar has or just how the faction plays... This comment on where it is possible to use Stormblades shows a lot of what I read Cygnar related, ie, if it's not absurd threat its not good.
I await flashbacks of the time when H2 gave deadeye to a bunch of stormblades who proceded to blast a heavy away with boosted RAT 7(?), POW 14 guns from DPS+3"+6" and call themselves heavy melee infantry. At least it won't be under H2's feat
When I say "absurd Threat" I generally mean "in the context of Stormblades" which is 12" in this case which isn't *that* far. Its essentially like proccing vengeance on Sentinels with less distance and roughly the same hitting power but using a feat instead.
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