Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 26, 2017 15:01:36 GMT
Please try using mechanics before saying how easy it is to use them. Mechanics cant follow a charging jack. So they almost always will arrive later. That's a fair point. My only counter to that is that most Colossals are gun platforms that rarely charge into melee. Usually when they enter melee it's because something charged them or they walk in late game.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 26, 2017 15:03:32 GMT
Most of the time though, mechanics are taken. At least I'd see it as a really good idea if you're taking a colossal. They should probably stay base to base if you're facing the that feat. Even Cygnar has a great mechanic. Strangeways and his stupidly good d3+3 healing. Almost ensures you have all systems functioning. (If you're allowed to spread the healing, which I'm pretty sure you are. correct me otherwise) Now before y'all cry he has some perceived disadvantage. I don't care. That's not the argument. The piece exists and is a really, really, good mechanic. That is the only statement I am making. I personally use a Stormclad to e-leap those mechanics to death (except Arlan of Course) Rargh! e-leap bad! Legion rage! [/sarcasm] E-leaps are annoying. being able to leap off your own stuff, more so. But it's a manageable and expected occurrence. If you're not prepared for it by now you have been living under a rock. Also, to my other post. Blessed weapon is fantastic. One of the few good animi we have access to. I'm not denying that. I accept the fault that I have to bring the naga for that. but that doesn't make it a infallible advantage. I just had a game when an Abby2 buffed blightbringer charged AS'ed Rwody. It took all 8 attacks for a 38 point model to drop an 18 point one... That's bonkers.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 26, 2017 15:05:05 GMT
I 100% disagree with Junior+jack being a tax. He brings 3 focus which he can use to fuel his jack or late game he is a fully boosted handcannon or perhaps handcannon+spell or even melee with 3 boosts.His jack gets power up, given the great shooty lights Cygnar has his jack has all the tools will usually do something worthwhile.
Btw seems that is SR2017 the pod will be able to score flags... Which is another perk to an already infuriating ability.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 26, 2017 15:05:08 GMT
Please try using mechanics before saying how easy it is to use them. Mechanics cant follow a charging jack. So they almost always will arrive later. We are literally talking specifically about colossals. What "shooty" colossal willingly out runs a mechanic?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 26, 2017 15:09:42 GMT
Ok, let me clarify - Play ahordes faction in MK3 for a year where Spiny growth is range self. You pay 4 points to get an armor swing against any faction. I have to pay 8 points to ignore that buff. Congrats you're still paying half the price. Circle has to pay 17. You are spoiled. Totally dismissing the fact that you have to take a jack outside the WJ points, in a list where a lot of points are already invested into a Colossal, and where probably said jack won't get caster BG benefits and so will probably perform worse than taking it on the caster (that maybe doesn't want another jack aside the colossal at all) seems a pretty bad way to argue. Then add that with that 8 points you also get the beast itself (with his attacks) and a Fury Battery, and the ability to not only remove Arcane Shield, but also every other buff and to give around Magic Weapons, and something to put the wounds of the warlock too... Really I think that the ones that claim that other factions are spoiled, or the ones that always see pieces of other factions as OP and the ones of their faction as underpowered are the ones that have a limited vision of the game, to focussed on their own little garden to understand well how other things work. If Cygnar "have it good" as you said, it would be a thing noticeable on tournament ladders, and the only time where Cygnar really dominated was right after Storm Division, where an already over the top unit (Stormlances) got deep discounts without any major drawback (And in fact, PP is totally right in nerfing them). Aside that time, for the whole MK2 and MK3, Cygnar was always pretty close to 50% win ratio, so in a good place but hardly too strong. Octavius is often pretty rough and extremist when sharing his opinions, but I totally agree with him that people that only played Hordes often take for granted the TONS and TONS of little advantages they have everywhere, and so compare with pieces on Warmachine (that are, in fact, a little cheaper for the output, but for a good reason) without taking that in consideration. And for your information, I played Circle since before I started to play Cygnar (so for the whole MK2 and MK3), and I still play it (less often than Cygnar, but with regularity). Tournament results are often misleading, because the lists that people take are colored by the meta and what they expect to see being played. If Cygnar is above curve, but everyone is bringing Cygnar counters, then it won't necessarily show up in tournament rankings. Same thing as with Cryx in Mk2 - popular faction, very strong, with a number of S-tier casters...but everyone was playing Cryx hate, so they weren't winning every event. That didn't mean that they weren't a problem. Right now, the 'cygnar drop' has become as ubiquitous as the Cryx drop in Mk2, and I think that's pretty damn telling. There's no real comparison between an expensive beast that does limited work and a 4 point support piece that sits near the back of the board, and fuels a hunter/charger/firefly while being 8" behind it. The Jr doesn't have to get any work done personally to be worth taking, and he doesn't have to risk himself to get work out of his 'jack. The naga is twice as expensive, so you generally want to get work done with it, has to be closer to the front lines to apply it's buff (which generally goes on a melee piece, and has to be reapplied every turn) unless you want to force the caster to spend fury to hand it out, and it's pretty much a dead piece against a fair number of matchups (whereas even where AS isn't great, it's still worth having a Jr. to hand out focus and force the opponent to spend 2+ fury ignoring your 1-per-turn upkeep. And Btw, since we seem to be disclosing the factions we play...I play Cygnar, Ret, and Circle. I don't own any gargantuans (mostly because I feel like double wrath is the only real way to play the wrath right now, and that's beyond my price range) and I regularly play a stormwall in my Cygnar and either a Helios or a Hyperion in my Ret. I'm not saying the Stormwall is overpowered, mind you, but it's definitely upper end of the curve for Colossals, which are almost universally better than Gargantuans. The only other Colossal I'd say competes with it is Helios, but even then it's arguable because Helios has no shooting output (well, DAMAGING shooting output...) but has a much higher melee damage potential. and octaviusmaximus, Mk2 Minions experience is irrelevant here - there is no comparison between Mk2 Hordes and Mk3 Hordes, if nothing else due to the changes to jacks and beasts in the transition. Cheaper (and more prevalent) jacks, power up, and more powerful jacks vs. more expensive, in some cases weaker, and self-animi beasts...there's no comparison.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 26, 2017 15:15:54 GMT
I missed this initially. Sorry, but Cygnar are hugely over performing on the tournament ladder.
Every single one of the big four UK events has been not just won by Cygnar, but the final in 3 of them was the Cygnar mirror matchup. I get, that the North American Cygnar players don't seem to have it figured out yet, but overall Cygnar are hugely over performing as a faction,
To suggest otherwise is frankly ridiculous.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 26, 2017 15:17:51 GMT
This thread is hilarious. You guys are going back and forth about the stormwall being OP and meanwhile the other Cygnar players are just keeping quiet and gently stroking their hurricanes.
Suffice to say Cygnar currently has the best end of the colossal/gargantuan shtick. Whether that's because of the models themselves or the buffs and support that cygnar can leverage is up for debate but no other faction is bringing the big guys out nearly as often as the boys in blue. Most colossals have a place in the meta because they are well designed shooting platforms that can preserve their excellent board presence and melee threat for the end of the game when it'll be the most valuable. This allows them to contribute all game long.
The big winners here are reflected by that ability to project a solid ranged threat in the early game: - Stormwall - Hurricane - Kraken (debateable) - Hyperion - Victor (debateable) - Conquest - Galleon - Axiom - Revalator (not out yet)
The ones that fall short or are niche just don't have the stats or ranged support to really establish that early ranged game superiority: - Earth breaker - Helios - Judicator - Conflux - Sepulcher
Warmachine doesn't need colossals to get in and hold territory because their jacks already do this very well and for cheaper. For example the earth breaker loosing out to the ruhlic jacks.
Flip the equation over to the hordes side and we see that the gargantuans making an impact are the ones that hold ground very well as very few of them bring the ranged threat comparable to colossals and beasts tend to be easier to remove: - Ice king - Mountain king - Wold Wrath
Niche use on the ones that do have a decent ranged game or mobility for protection - Mammoth (would be a ground holder but skorne beasts are the most comparable to warjacks in this regard) - Arc Angel
The rest are too niche on their application or PP tried to gimmick it up without success: - Raptor - Hydra - Sea King - Blight Bringer
There are a variety of reasons why those garguantuans fall short and the discussion is different for each one but that's how I see things right now.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 15:18:22 GMT
Totally dismissing the fact that you have to take a jack outside the WJ points, in a list where a lot of points are already invested into a Colossal, and where probably said jack won't get caster BG benefits and so will probably perform worse than taking it on the caster (that maybe doesn't want another jack aside the colossal at all) seems a pretty bad way to argue. Then add that with that 8 points you also get the beast itself (with his attacks) and a Fury Battery, and the ability to not only remove Arcane Shield, but also every other buff and to give around Magic Weapons, and something to put the wounds of the warlock too... Really I think that the ones that claim that other factions are spoiled, or the ones that always see pieces of other factions as OP and the ones of their faction as underpowered are the ones that have a limited vision of the game, to focussed on their own little garden to understand well how other things work. If Cygnar "have it good" as you said, it would be a thing noticeable on tournament ladders, and the only time where Cygnar really dominated was right after Storm Division, where an already over the top unit (Stormlances) got deep discounts without any major drawback (And in fact, PP is totally right in nerfing them). Aside that time, for the whole MK2 and MK3, Cygnar was always pretty close to 50% win ratio, so in a good place but hardly too strong. Octavius is often pretty rough and extremist when sharing his opinions, but I totally agree with him that people that only played Hordes often take for granted the TONS and TONS of little advantages they have everywhere, and so compare with pieces on Warmachine (that are, in fact, a little cheaper for the output, but for a good reason) without taking that in consideration. And for your information, I played Circle since before I started to play Cygnar (so for the whole MK2 and MK3), and I still play it (less often than Cygnar, but with regularity). Ok, let me legitimize my experience against your assumptions. I play Cryx, Khador, Legion, Circle, and Minnions. I've see both sides hordes and warmachine and I have experience with it enough to make a comment that Warmachine have good Colossals. I'm not crying "OP". What I started this of with is "the stormwall is amazing". Because it is. Arcanse shield is fantastic, because it is. Not ever faction has access to blessed weapons. I was not arguing Legion's ability to do something about it. Octavius took it personally. That's why we're here. Saying that having to take a warjack under junior is a "waste" 1) that's how the game works. everyone falls victim to that. 2) Cygnar has some great jacks for that purpose. Chargers under Junior do stupid amounts of work. Far more than their point value. Having the ability to put a +3 arm swing on any model/unit is stupidly useful, especially at 4 points. Even if you must skew the argument to say that it costs 13 for the package, I'd still pay that everyday of the week. It's GOOD. As for the naga; I don't like the fact that I have to shoe horn a crap warbeast into every single list I make, just so I can have an almost equal game with Cygnar. The naga is not absolute trash but it's an 8 point support piece that as soon as it dies, and it will at arm 15 and 19 boxes, the animus is gone. It has a cute attempt at crit shadow bind. But it's unreliable and do you want a support piece that only works 30% of the time? No. it's just a side effect that you're happy if it happens. I don't need another "fury battery" I have a beast that are worth engaging with that I need to worry about. The naga is far from a perfect choice; it's a lack luster necessity. Cygnar does have it good. Winning tournaments or not they are the most popular faction in the game for a reason. They are strong. Cygnar is the most popular because they're the "good guy" protagonist faction with human characters, and a color scheme of blue and gold. Those traits appeal to a very large group of people. It's like space marines being really popular. Most of the cover art for WMH is Cygnar for similar reasons. People are more likely to enjoy art with human people wearing blue and gold than with any other niche appearance in other factions. Cryx are mechanical zombies. Khador are heavily based on USSR aesthetic. And the Protectorate are religous zealots with fire and covered faces. Mercs have a scattered aesthetic of pirates, dwarves, etc. Hordes in particular has aesthetics that can be offputting for players new to the iron kingdoms. Skorne are zombie-lookin' dudes with mutant elephants. Legion are albino ninja elves with pasty dragons that have no eyes. Trolls are bulbous, blue skinned scotsman assisted by bigger, naked, dire versions of themselves. Circle is the most likely to appeal to new players in the hordes block because it has humans and werewolves. Easy concept for people to understand. And Minions is mutated franken-pigs, and some walking lizards. Now, those are all cool factions. If someone likes those faction looks, good for them. They are not in a small group there. But it is pretty clear that humans in blue and gold armor with robots will appeal to the biggest group of potential customers. --------------------------------------- Colossal talk: Now, Octavius merely noted that the Stormwall and Hurricane do not hit particularly hard in melee when compared to other colossals. And that is true. Compared to every colossal, only the kraken chassis has lower p+s (p+s9). But that does have chain weapon, and the Kraken can get to pow22 by killing some infantry. And the Cygnar colossals are the most expensive colossals at 39 points. That is more than made up for by the shooting power, and control abilities of the Stormwall and Hurricane. So, I'm not complaining. But Octavius was correct on that topic. I would love a CID for gargs and colossals. The Legion ones, the sea king, maybe the storm raptor could use some love.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 26, 2017 15:20:31 GMT
[We are literally talking specifically about colossals. What "shooty" colossal willingly out runs a mechanic? One not located in a vacume for instance? When i cast superiority on conquest for instance. It outwalks the battle mechanics.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 15:29:45 GMT
[We are literally talking specifically about colossals. What "shooty" colossal willingly out runs a mechanic? One not located in a vacume for instance? When i cast superiority on conquest for instance. It outwalks the battle mechanics. So that's what happens at 1000 posts. Congrats, Rowdy.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 26, 2017 15:34:45 GMT
[We are literally talking specifically about colossals. What "shooty" colossal willingly out runs a mechanic? One not located in a vacume for instance? When i cast superiority on conquest for instance. It outwalks the battle mechanics. If you're either being careless, or making a conscious decision to move it out of their range for value. Yes. Positioning is important, yes? And seriously, to the person who ranked Hyperion as better than Helios...LOL. Helios is an amazing piece that sees play with numerous casters, and is extremely powerful into the 'jack heavy meta we are still seeing a lot of. Hyperion sees play with ONE caster (Issyria) because he doesn't bring enough utility or ranged presence to justify his existence ( shockingly, if you use his 10" sparkle cannon, you're usually getting charged next turn.)
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 26, 2017 15:36:32 GMT
Cygnar is the most popular because they're the "good guy" protagonist faction with human characters, and a color scheme of blue and gold. Those traits appeal to a very large group of people. It's like space marines being really popular. Most of the cover art for WMH is Cygnar for similar reasons. People are more likely to enjoy art with human people wearing blue and gold than with any other niche appearance in other factions. This is purely speculation and quantifiable. Also being the "good guy" means nothing to a person whose never seen the game, much less read the fluff. It's popular not just with new players either. Existing players jumped to Cygnar at the edition change and sold off all their "less performing" armies. That we can quantify with just how many barter town trades went up. How many ebay sales. And if we could ever get it; the sales numbers for models. But not the most expensive huge base. Sea king has that crown. So it could always be worse.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 26, 2017 15:48:02 GMT
Yes, i get the concious desision to shoot something or stay behind to be fixed.
But thats still a large limitation of mechanics. I love those guys, but you gotta be aware.
Also jeez. 1000 posts. I never knew I was that active.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 26, 2017 15:50:39 GMT
The gargantuans have less ranged attacks the colossals. They have lower pow melee attacks then colossals, but can have more of them. Gargantuans tend to be easier to kill than colossals. Gargantuans are not very good right now. The mountain king is about the only one right now and he's cheaper than most other gargantuans and his animus turns him into a colossal for melee damage output and attacks. Kill shot gives him a second ranged attack which brings him closer to the ranged output of a colossal. So the most used gargantuan is the one who has abilities that lets him behave like a colossal.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 26, 2017 15:51:03 GMT
Also jeez. 1000 posts. I never knew I was that active. quantity over quality I guess....
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