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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 16:41:44 GMT
The list of jacks that Junior can reasonable run is short: charger, hunter, firefly, and sentinel (if you feel like bringing a sentinel for some reason).
All jacks that are -fairly cheap -primarily shoot -don't force junior to wade into battle to keep them in control -need 0-1 focus a turn
All of that is because junior with AS would never be run, and even junior with AS is hard to dedicate a warjack to.
Someone mentioned junior having boostable melee attacks as being useful. He is mat 5, p+s 10 with 0.5" range. Don't kid yourself.
Junior is a really strong piece, but that is only because of AS.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 26, 2017 16:49:57 GMT
And snipe.
Im fine with the boy, but hes singly probably the best thing for its points.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 26, 2017 16:57:58 GMT
I was avoiding mentioning Haley2 and Haley3 so as not to derrail the topic but you had to to make a list and not include them. They are, so suddenly you have at least 4 casters, 5 with Caine3 (Don't get fooled by the card colour)... Nemo3 perhaps? That gun and his ability to fuel jacks come to mind... Any others? Suddenly a lot more than 2. Haley2 and Haley3 are control casters, not debuff or personal-power casters (again, if we consider "personal power" killing stuff by themselves as a tactic. I have hard time finding two casters more different than Haley2 and the Butcher), Nemo3 ability works on BG jacks, so its a pretty good example of a caster that prefers jacks on himself (again, talking about things you don't even know doesn't seem to me a good way to make a point). I won't take a free foc 2 JR (without AS) with any of the extra casters you mentioned, since I would have much better things to take, and even if I want a Charger, I'm probably best served taking it with the caster itself, so with them it would be a tax. A tax I would gladly pay most times for AS, but still a tax.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 26, 2017 16:59:46 GMT
And snipe. Im fine with the boy, but hes singly probably the best thing for its points. Uh? JR doesn't have Snipe. If JR had Snipe it would be the most OP thing on earth (Actually, the Trencher JR had Snipe in internal PP playtests for like 5 min, and they immediatly removed it luckly. )
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 26, 2017 17:23:25 GMT
Man brainfart I suppose.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 17:36:38 GMT
And snipe. Im fine with the boy, but hes singly probably the best thing for its points. Uh? JR doesn't have Snipe. If JR had Snipe it would be the most OP thing on earth (Actually, the Trencher JR had Snipe in internal PP playtests for like 5 min, and they immediatly removed it luckly. ) Silly. You're forgetting that Cygnar has snipe, arcane shield, extra focus, and +2 defense on everything all the time while sloan and Haley2's feats are active every turn. Also storm lances are literally indestructable and have a rule that says "remove 2 enemy units and a heavy from play each turn". Y'all better remember who the best factions is. ;D
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Post by Aegis on Jun 26, 2017 17:38:34 GMT
Uh? JR doesn't have Snipe. If JR had Snipe it would be the most OP thing on earth (Actually, the Trencher JR had Snipe in internal PP playtests for like 5 min, and they immediatly removed it luckly. ) Silly. You're forgetting that Cygnar has snipe, arcane shield, extra focus, and +2 defense on everything all the time while sloan and Haley2's feats are active every turn. Also storm lances are literally indestructable and have a rule that says "remove 2 enemy units and a heavy from play each turn". Y'all better remember who the best factions is. ;D You are right. I'm going to auto-flagellate myself for having forgotten that.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 26, 2017 17:41:16 GMT
Heh, and all Khadoran warjacks are armor 20! Oh.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 26, 2017 18:45:39 GMT
Stormwall and JR are great, noone argued against that. That said, every faction has his fair share of great things. You play a lot of factions, but do not play Cygnar, and it isn't a case that you are saying that one faction you don't play "has it good". I'm sure that when people complain that Juggernaught is OP or Denny is stupidly good, or Hellmouth should cost double the points they cost, you have a reasonable point to make to explain why, while being great pieces, into their own faction they are ok as they are since there are drawbacks that people don't notice looking from the outside. The same happens in Cygnar, you are just blind to them since you look at it from the outside. Following your same request, seriously play Cygnar for one year and them come here saying that we are spoiled and "get it good" after that. You'll still think that Stormwall, JR, Squire, ecc... are great pieces (in fact, noone denies it), but you will have a more complete understanding of the faction and see why, while having access to a lot of good tools, those don't push the faction outside the boundaries. The fact that Cygnar is popular isn't necessarily tied with being powerful. At the beginning of MK2 (before Stormwall) Cygnar had quite a bit of problems, but was still pretty popular... You know, "poster boys" and everything else that gets complained everyday about Cygnar in the fluff? Quite a lot of people like to play a human "good" (at least for what good there can be in Warmahordes) faction. There are also quite a lot of guys that have blue as favorite color (I would probably have played Menoth if it was a cream-blue faction instead of cream-red). On the Charger and Naga.. You say that you would like to not be forced to take it in every list, but it's the same thing for JR+Charger. While Charger is a great piece, I sometime would like to not be forced to include it in every list. Maybe I need points for something else, and spending 52 points on Stormwall + AS + Charger limits my list too much to be able to buy that, or maybe I would like the Charger, but I have a caster that gives tons of bonuses to his BG (Caine3, Sloan, Kraye, Darius, etc...) so spending the same points to get a model that doesn't synergy with the caster as opposed to taking it in BG is not ideal. Sure, every JR works like that, but let's be honest, other JRs don't care at all since they are there specifically to run their own mini-BG, while JR is there mainly to be a support piece (AS on a stick). It's like if to take a Shepherd you had to also bring a beast outside BG that doesn't get caster bonuses. Maybe the beast itself is still great, but you are forced to play it even in list that would prefer something else and the beast doesn't get the bonus it would have been allowed if it was taken on the caster (first of all using the caster points. Starting an infantry list knowing that you are going to spend at least 40 points on jacks, since the caster has also to take his own jacks, just to have AS isn't ideal). That without considering that sure, AS is great, but there are factions that get good ARM already on the models themselves. Being forced to pay to get a model ARM from mediocre to Extremely good, while the rest of your models remain with mediocre ARM because they are balanced with the possibility that AS gets on them isn't always great. That is not to complain. Stormwall is one of the most functional Gargossal, JR is great, etc... But, as with every other great pieces in other factions, the faction as a whole gets balanced around the great pieces to avoid to put anything over the top, so complaining just because other factions have their share of good models hasn't much sense, and doing so calling them "spoiled" is the best way to get an harsh and defensive response instead of a constructive one. Juggernaut has too good of stats and too many boxes to the be that cheap. Denny is stupid. Ghost fleet gives her dumb attrition option she didn't have before, nor did she need. Hellmouths do need a cost increase to 7 if not 8. Or keep them at 6 and drop the armor of the maw from 18 to 16, tentacles 15 to 14. I recolonize these imbalances. Accept that they are imbalanced and have many a time suggested a change for them. I myself am at the point I will not play these models because I do deem them to be unfair. Thank you for more assumptions about my character... (I will argue to the cows come how about people hating on Fyanna and our flyers) I can understand not wanting to have to take Jr in every list. But it not like your list options do not function without Jr. You can still play perfectly fine without it. I can, for the most part, play without the naga in about any non-cygnar matchup. I just don't have any options in faction for upkeep hate. Some factions do. If Legion was allowed to keep Hex Blast instead of getting every instance replaced with Hex Bolt. it wouldn't be as big a problem. Khador does have some good Arm values without AS. If they did have access to AS they would be broken. Arm 26 clam jack anyone? So yes your average is going to be less. But My average is 16. Why don't I have access to AS? I'm not complaining that I want to get Cygnar's toys. I want blighted dragon toys. But you cannot give the reason "We have less arm, therefore we get arm bonus" when there are factions with even less arm and no buff. Jr or not. We get 2 sources of beast armor buffs. Thags 2's +2 and Saeryn 1's +3 feat. Don't get me started on Stryker's +5 and still having access to AS. As for balance. I play Circle. I know how a faction gets balanced around a spell (primal). Nothing new here. But Cygnar is not hurting that much because of access to AS. If I was to complain about every good model Cygnar had, I'd hit Rowdy's post count in no time. I AM NOT complaining. I am stating observations. Now, when someone comes along and rebukes the observation telling me Cygnar models are terrible and that I have nothing or no right to make my statement. Yes I have to defend right back. I'm sorry I see it as "spoiled" and child-ish when a player of the top faction with, collectively agreed upon, some of the best models in the game complains that they aren't good enough. Then has the gaul to insult and laugh because I play the faction I do. I'm bad tempered and yea I respond with more malice and make personal comments more than I should... Now, If PhoenixForger wants to start swapping armies and I get play time with Cygnar. I'm fine with that. But I'm not going out and buying a Cygnar army to appease your perception that I don't have enough experience with this game to make passing comments on a faction that I now essentially have to play against all the time. Because everyone who played a different faction at the start of Mk3 either jumped to Cygnar (and still left) or just plain left the game.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 26, 2017 19:13:50 GMT
If Khador had good ranged jacks for under 10pts I bet they would. If a Hordes faction has good shooty lights (with ECR preferably) and a theme where the light's points go towards a discount on your junior AND buff outside their BG they will also use them.
Keep that in mind, the non-journeyman juniors buff their BG not any target.
There are good shooting lights around in various factions (Khador just doesn't have lights, but that is another matter). Still, I strongly doubt that a free FOC 2 spell-less JR would be used in many lists (let alone every list). Sure, in some it would, pretty much how in some specific lists JR isn't a bothersome tax (like you pointed out), but what about all other lists? There are many of them that still need AS. Isn't a tax in that case? Actually, I play Cygnar and I'm spoiled and blind (etc.. etc...) and I actually leave JR at home in at least 1/3 of my lists DESPITE it being crazy OP... Am I mad? I don't like to "get it easy"? Or maybe you are not considering all the variables? Good shooty lights...let's take a look: In Ret, we have the Gorgon as the only shooty light. Generally overcosted, not terribly impactful, works fine (to the extent that it does work) on a single powerup focus. In Khador, we have no shooty lights and no cheap ranged jacks In Menoth, you have...the Redeemer? Not a cheap jack, but granted it can use the extra focus. In Mercs you have the gunbunnies (don't need extra focus) and the vanguard (short range, more of a melee jack than a ranged jack). The renegade would be decent, but is limited to Magnus. In Trolls, you have Pyre Trolls (overcosted) and Impalers (also overcosted) In Circle, you have Woldwyrds (actually might be a decent choice, but still better run by the new fulcrum) In Skorne, you have...the Cyclopes Reiver? I guess? I never see him, so... In Legion, you have the Nephilim with the crossbow (generally want him on the caster for snipe) and the Naga (generally also want him on the caster for the animus, not really a good shooting beast at the price.) Doesn't seem all that great to me... Also, when people talk about 'personal impact' casters, they're mostly talking about casters that get work done themselves. Either they do a lot of work in melee (Butcher) or they want to cast a lot of spells, but the key commonality is that they don't tend to have a lot of focus to hand out to jacks. Seriously, are you telling me that with Haley2 in heavy metal, you wouldn't take a free 0 point focus 2 junior to ease the load on Haley? Because I sure would.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 26, 2017 19:27:23 GMT
I'm sorry I see it as "spoiled" and child-ish when a player of the top faction with, collectively agreed upon, some of the best models in the game complains that they aren't good enough. Then has the gaul to insult and laugh because I play the faction I do. I'm bad tempered and yea I respond with more malice and make personal comments more than I should... Who is that complained that those pieces aren't good enough? Because I didn't see it at all. People just mistake saying "That piece is not OP because it has X drawbacks" with "That piece is not good enough". I would agree that someone that says that things like JR or Stormwall aren't good enough is spoiled, but who sayd that? On AS. You said that without it Cygnar is perfectly fine... That is a thing that you'll likely understand if you ever happen to play Cygnar. Let's just point out that, aside Stormlances (clearly OP unit), it's 2 whole editions that Cygnar doesn't play in-faction infantry (even WITH AS). Cygnar infantry strikes reasonably well, so why does it happen? Maybe Cygnar has serious problem delivering them? And why if AS isn't even necessary? You say that Legion stuff has ARM 16. True, but how is their DEF? Their SPD? How many things like Stealth you have in faction? How much your high pow units costs? Consider also those things before saying that Cygnar stuff doesn't need AS at all... That said, I still think that talking about models of faction you don't play, dismissing every reply with just "but I'm right because I can see instead you are blind because you are spoiled" (with all his different iterations that basically mean the same thing) is an asinine line to begin with, and one that is likely to get you only pissed off people that will not have any reason to try to argue with you constructively.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 26, 2017 19:39:52 GMT
I'm sorry I see it as "spoiled" and child-ish when a player of the top faction with, collectively agreed upon, some of the best models in the game complains that they aren't good enough. Then has the gaul to insult and laugh because I play the faction I do. I'm bad tempered and yea I respond with more malice and make personal comments more than I should... Who is that complained that those pieces aren't good enough? Because I didn't see it at all. People just mistake saying "That piece is not OP because it has X drawbacks" with "That piece is not good enough". I would agree that someone that says that things like JR or Stormwall aren't good enough is spoiled, but who sayd that? On AS. You said that without it Cygnar is perfectly fine... That is a thing that you'll likely understand if you ever happen to play Cygnar. Let's just point out that, aside Stormlances (clearly OP unit), it's 2 whole editions that Cygnar doesn't play in-faction infantry (even WITH AS). Cygnar infantry strikes reasonably well, so why does it happen? Maybe Cygnar has serious problem delivering them? And why if AS isn't even necessary? You say that Legion stuff has ARM 16. True, but how is their DEF? Their SPD? How many things like Stealth you have in faction? How much your high pow units costs? Consider also those things before saying that Cygnar stuff doesn't need AS at all... That said, I still think that talking about models of faction you don't play, dismissing every reply with just "but I'm right because I can see instead you are blind because you are spoiled" (with all his different iterations that basically mean the same thing) is an asinine line to begin with, and one that is likely to get you only pissed off people that will not have any reason to try to argue with you constructively. I play Cygnar, so stop saying that this is just a problem of anti-Cygnar bias. I rarely see AS go on Cygnar infantry, so that's a red herring. It goes on Centurions, Storm Lances, and Stormwalls, occasionally on a Stormclad. I've rarely seen it go on anything else. The issue is not whether ARM 18(21 with minifeat) Stormblades are OP - they're clearly not. The question is whether ARM 22 Stormwalls, 24 Centurions, and 20 Stormlances are OP. completely different issue. And Cygnar has a problem with delivery, yes...but the best infantry-clearing gunlines are all in Cygnar, so it's kind of a circular problem you've got going there. When I play my Cygnar infantry, it's worst matchup by far is the Cygnar mirror. Jr is a problem for Cygnar, purely because of how available he is. I'd like (at the very least) to see him get cut out of Storm Division, which he has no thematic connection to, whatsoever. For a start.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 26, 2017 19:47:34 GMT
Watch your words. Lets not get too heated here - and that applies to everyone. The topic is the power level of Gargossals, not faction power level.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 26, 2017 20:38:07 GMT
I play Cygnar, so stop saying that this is just a problem of anti-Cygnar bias. I rarely see AS go on Cygnar infantry, so that's a red herring. It goes on Centurions, Storm Lances, and Stormwalls, occasionally on a Stormclad. I've rarely seen it go on anything else. The issue is not whether ARM 18(21 with minifeat) Stormblades are OP - they're clearly not. The question is whether ARM 22 Stormwalls, 24 Centurions, and 20 Stormlances are OP. completely different issue. And Cygnar has a problem with delivery, yes...but the best infantry-clearing gunlines are all in Cygnar, so it's kind of a circular problem you've got going there. When I play my Cygnar infantry, it's worst matchup by far is the Cygnar mirror. Jr is a problem for Cygnar, purely because of how available he is. I'd like (at the very least) to see him get cut out of Storm Division, which he has no thematic connection to, whatsoever. For a start. I don't see anything that counters my argument in my post. Actually, you seem to confirm it. Sure, AS goes on jacks usually, exactly because, even with AS, most cygnar infantry isn't worth as much as jacks. And if you remove JR from Storm Division, it will become even more a Stormlances and Stormlances only theme. At least now sometimes it is possible to play a Maddox list with Stormblades, without AS I seriously doubt you will ever see that (Let alone Stormguards). I'll gladly see AS removed if all the jacks got +1 ARM and all the melee infantry got +2 ARM on the main stats, but since we are not in dreamland, AS is going to stay, otherwise you will not see any cygnar infantry ever. On if ARM 22 Stormwalls are OP, I don't think so. They are extremely good to be sure, but in my experience, I often prefer to take multiple jacks than an AS Stormwall, so I don't see it as that problematic. That said, I think we should focus back on the generic argument of Gargossals instead of JR, as Cryptix says.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 26, 2017 20:40:04 GMT
You say that Legion stuff has ARM 16. True, but how is their DEF? Their SPD? How many things like Stealth you have in faction? How much your high pow units costs? Consider also those things before saying that Cygnar stuff doesn't need AS at all... Legion beasts - 11/18 (3) or 14/16 (3) heavies. Lights are down from there which is what really pulls the average down. Legion Infantry - 15/11, 14/13, 12/15, 13/15 (incubi only), 12/12 (spell martyrs and shepherds) single wound. 14/15 cav, 12/16 multi wound. Average price is 9/15 with a 5 or 6 point attachment. We have 2 units with Stealth and they are both locked at 6 man units. Hex hunters are a 10 man with prowl. All but the Legionnaires come with any defense buff innately. We have 2 single instances of armor buff spells. 1 armor buff feat. No single wound models that survives e-leaps on average dice. I'd love to have AS. But i do just fine without. I accept my losses. I main two factions, Legion and Cryx, that our standard is less armor and less hit boxes than Cygnar jacks without access to that armor buff. How is that not explicit experience in knowing how good a +3 armor swing would be? Edit: Just saw the mod post after this one. I'll shut up from here on out. I've said my piece on gargossals.
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