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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 26, 2017 13:19:28 GMT
Hordes is just always second fiddle. None of the Gargantuans have the number of guns and special rules as colossals. What little compensation we have seems to be movement (I think most Gargs are faster then all the Colossals) Archangel is nice, variable rate of fire is a terrible joke that I wish wasn't true. When Colossals get 2d3 Plus a big gun, plus kill shot, and yada yada yada. It's woefully under powered in terms of it's shooting game (damage wise). In melee it's passable, for a heavy warbeast. It comes in just one point of P+S more than a carnivean and the same fury stat and Mat. But it still falls down like a house of cards at the slightest breeze. (A Pureblood under synergy alone warped ghostly and walked through a house to one-round it) It's animus is an insult. The Blightbringer is the salt in the wound. We have to pay 38 points to buff infantry to marginally good. Half your list has to go to giving infantry a +2str/+2arm when our infantry's average armor is 13, it does hardly nothing for survivability. So after all the infantry is gone to unboosted pow 10s, we're left with a 38 point dead weight. It's gun is Rof1, speed 4 means it's not going to make it to melee anytime soon and is easily walked away from. It's sickening. Add to that our only "infantry theme" right now doesn't allow it. Also, absolutely useless animus. @octavius - The Stormwall is absolutely amazing. With your stupid cheap arcane shield on-a-stick, it's disgusting. It's got guns to blow up heavies and a stupid 10 inch lightning fence to clear infantry. It's another perfect package in a faction of "we do everything well". I swear you need to play another faction (preferably a hordes faction) for a year and see just how good Cygnar has it. I played Minions for close to a year in Mk 2. You know what I found? A pow 17 Warbeast hit approximately as hard as a Pow 19 Jack because they got more initials and more attacks, and Animi were awesome. I could rely on a Spiny Growth'd wrastler to tank a lot of heavies in the game as long as I reduced the exposure to 1 on 1 and not many gunshots and then I would often get 2 heavies out of it. I found that people who play strictly (or mostly) hordes miss the many many sweet advantages they have. Also, lol, a legion player complaining about Arcane Shield. Man, the Junior feels like such dead weight vs Legion because of the Naga.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 26, 2017 13:27:16 GMT
Ok, let me clarify - Play ahordes faction in MK3 for a year where Spiny growth is range self.
You pay 4 points to get an armor swing against any faction. I have to pay 8 points to ignore that buff. Congrats you're still paying half the price. Circle has to pay 17. You are spoiled.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 26, 2017 13:38:27 GMT
Ok, let me clarify - Play ahordes faction in MK3 for a year where Spiny growth is range self. You pay 4 points to get an armor swing against any faction. I have to pay 8 points to ignore that buff. Congrats you're still paying half the price. Circle has to pay 17. You are spoiled. No, you set your challenge, I passed it. Don't change the goal posts because you are mad about it.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 26, 2017 13:41:16 GMT
Hordes is just always second fiddle. None of the Gargantuans have the number of guns and special rules as colossals. What little compensation we have seems to be movement (I think most Gargs are faster then all the Colossals) The Mountain king is the exception, that thing is really good for the following reasons
1) has it's own inbuilt healing mechanic, which is even better now it is immune to Grievous Wounds
2) Brings Rage as it's animus, meaning it can do seriously heavy lifting.
3) With Assault and Kill Shot at Spray 10 Pow 16, it can dig really deep.
4) Has it's own accuracy buff with Deafen
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 26, 2017 13:48:33 GMT
Ok, let me clarify - Play ahordes faction in MK3 for a year where Spiny growth is range self. You pay 4 points to get an armor swing against any faction. I have to pay 8 points to ignore that buff. Congrats you're still paying half the price. Circle has to pay 17. You are spoiled. No, you set your challenge, I passed it. Don't change the goal posts because you are mad about it. Invalid experience from a previous edition doesn't "pass" anything. MK2 hordes was a ton better. The point is to try and force you to experience the current short comings of the Hordes side of the game. You'll never see the game fairly from a single faction. It's called bias and you have plenty of it. You are literally just avoiding having to play and view the game from a fair perspective. Enjoy using your crutches.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 26, 2017 13:50:22 GMT
Hordes is just always second fiddle. None of the Gargantuans have the number of guns and special rules as colossals. What little compensation we have seems to be movement (I think most Gargs are faster then all the Colossals) The Mountain king is the exception, that thing is really good for the following reasons
1) has it's own inbuilt healing mechanic, which is even better now it is immune to Grievous Wounds
2) Brings Rage as it's animus, meaning it can do seriously heavy lifting.
3) With Assault and Kill Shot at Spray 10 Pow 16, it can dig really deep.
4) Has it's own accuracy buff with Deafen
Yeah, that's built more like a Colossal (complete isolated package. Brings all of it's own power no matter the caster). That's seriously impressive. Wish that could be the standard instead of the exception.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 26, 2017 14:00:50 GMT
No, you set your challenge, I passed it. Don't change the goal posts because you are mad about it. Invalid experience from a previous edition doesn't "pass" anything. MK2 hordes was a ton better. The point is to try and force you to experience the current short comings of the Hordes side of the game. You'll never see the game fairly from a single faction. It's called bias and you have plenty of it. You are literally just avoiding having to play and view the game from a fair perspective. Enjoy using your crutches. Lol, crutches. You crack me up
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Post by Aegis on Jun 26, 2017 14:04:31 GMT
Ok, let me clarify - Play ahordes faction in MK3 for a year where Spiny growth is range self. You pay 4 points to get an armor swing against any faction. I have to pay 8 points to ignore that buff. Congrats you're still paying half the price. Circle has to pay 17. You are spoiled. Totally dismissing the fact that you have to take a jack outside the WJ points, in a list where a lot of points are already invested into a Colossal, and where probably said jack won't get caster BG benefits and so will probably perform worse than taking it on the caster (that maybe doesn't want another jack aside the colossal at all) seems a pretty bad way to argue. Then add that with that 8 points you also get the beast itself (with his attacks) and a Fury Battery, and the ability to not only remove Arcane Shield, but also every other buff and to give around Magic Weapons, and something to put the wounds of the warlock too... Really I think that the ones that claim that other factions are spoiled, or the ones that always see pieces of other factions as OP and the ones of their faction as underpowered are the ones that have a limited vision of the game, to focussed on their own little garden to understand well how other things work. If Cygnar "have it good" as you said, it would be a thing noticeable on tournament ladders, and the only time where Cygnar really dominated was right after Storm Division, where an already over the top unit (Stormlances) got deep discounts without any major drawback (And in fact, PP is totally right in nerfing them). Aside that time, for the whole MK2 and MK3, Cygnar was always pretty close to 50% win ratio, so in a good place but hardly too strong. Octavius is often pretty rough and extremist when sharing his opinions, but I totally agree with him that people that only played Hordes often take for granted the TONS and TONS of little advantages they have everywhere, and so compare with pieces on Warmachine (that are, in fact, a little cheaper for the output, but for a good reason) without taking that in consideration. And for your information, I played Circle since before I started to play Cygnar (so for the whole MK2 and MK3), and I still play it (less often than Cygnar, but with regularity).
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 26, 2017 14:27:59 GMT
Actually another (albeit very specific) advantage of Gargantuan is that their melee weapons cannot be crippled.
When facing a Colossal with Haley 2 you can send in a Heavy on one side, take out that side and then feat, the colossal cannot turn to attack you with their good arm. However against a Gargantuan they can just heal a box or two using their warlock and then smash your heavy.
#firstworldcygnarproblems
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 26, 2017 14:42:28 GMT
Ok, let me clarify - Play ahordes faction in MK3 for a year where Spiny growth is range self. You pay 4 points to get an armor swing against any faction. I have to pay 8 points to ignore that buff. Congrats you're still paying half the price. Circle has to pay 17. You are spoiled. Totally dismissing the fact that you have to take a jack outside the WJ points, in a list where a lot of points are already invested into a Colossal, and where probably said jack won't get caster BG benefits and so will probably perform worse than taking it on the caster (that maybe doesn't want another jack aside the colossal at all) seems a pretty bad way to argue. Then add that with that 8 points you also get the beast itself (with his attacks) and a Fury Battery, and the ability to not only remove Arcane Shield, but also every other buff and to give around Magic Weapons, and something to put the wounds of the warlock too... Really I think that the ones that claim that other factions are spoiled, or the ones that always see pieces of other factions as OP and the ones of their faction as underpowered are the ones that have a limited vision of the game, to focussed on their own little garden to understand well how other things work. If Cygnar "have it good" as you said, it would be a thing noticeable on tournament ladders, and the only time where Cygnar really dominated was right after Storm Division, where an already over the top unit (Stormlances) got deep discounts without any major drawback (And in fact, PP is totally right in nerfing them). Aside that time, for the whole MK2 and MK3, Cygnar was always pretty close to 50% win ratio, so in a good place but hardly too strong. Octavius is often pretty rough and extremist when sharing his opinions, but I totally agree with him that people that only played Hordes often take for granted the TONS and TONS of little advantages they have everywhere, and so compare with pieces on Warmachine (that are, in fact, a little cheaper for the output, but for a good reason) without taking that in consideration. And for your information, I played Circle since before I started to play Cygnar (so for the whole MK2 and MK3), and I still play it (less often than Cygnar, but with regularity). Ok, let me legitimize my experience against your assumptions. I play Cryx, Khador, Legion, Circle, and Minnions. I've see both sides hordes and warmachine and I have experience with it enough to make a comment that Warmachine have good Colossals. I'm not crying "OP". What I started this of with is "the stormwall is amazing". Because it is. Arcanse shield is fantastic, because it is. Not ever faction has access to blessed weapons. I was not arguing Legion's ability to do something about it. Octavius took it personally. That's why we're here. Saying that having to take a warjack under junior is a "waste" 1) that's how the game works. everyone falls victim to that. 2) Cygnar has some great jacks for that purpose. Chargers under Junior do stupid amounts of work. Far more than their point value. Having the ability to put a +3 arm swing on any model/unit is stupidly useful, especially at 4 points. Even if you must skew the argument to say that it costs 13 for the package, I'd still pay that everyday of the week. It's GOOD. As for the naga; I don't like the fact that I have to shoe horn a crap warbeast into every single list I make, just so I can have an almost equal game with Cygnar. The naga is not absolute trash but it's an 8 point support piece that as soon as it dies, and it will at arm 15 and 19 boxes, the animus is gone. It has a cute attempt at crit shadow bind. But it's unreliable and do you want a support piece that only works 30% of the time? No. it's just a side effect that you're happy if it happens. I don't need another "fury battery" I have a beast that are worth engaging with that I need to worry about. The naga is far from a perfect choice; it's a lack luster necessity. Cygnar does have it good. Winning tournaments or not they are the most popular faction in the game for a reason. They are strong.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 26, 2017 14:49:07 GMT
Actually another (albeit very specific) advantage of Gargantuan is that their melee weapons cannot be crippled. When facing a Colossal with Haley 2 you can send in a Heavy on one side, take out that side and then feat, the colossal cannot turn to attack you with their good arm. However against a Gargantuan they can just heal a box or two using their warlock and then smash your heavy. #firstworldcygnarproblems Most of the time though, mechanics are taken. At least I'd see it as a really good idea if you're taking a colossal. They should probably stay base to base if you're facing that feat. Not to disprove the point. Most jsut a thought. Even Cygnar has a great mechanic. Strangeways and his stupidly good d3+3 healing. Almost ensures you have all systems functioning. (If you're allowed to spread the healing, which I'm pretty sure you are. correct me otherwise) Now before y'all cry he has some perceived disadvantage. I don't care. That's not the argument. The piece exists and is a really, really, good mechanic. That is the only statement I am making.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 26, 2017 14:51:25 GMT
Actually another (albeit very specific) advantage of Gargantuan is that their melee weapons cannot be crippled. When facing a Colossal with Haley 2 you can send in a Heavy on one side, take out that side and then feat, the colossal cannot turn to attack you with their good arm. However against a Gargantuan they can just heal a box or two using their warlock and then smash your heavy. #firstworldcygnarproblems Most of the time though, mechanics are taken. At least I'd see it as a really good idea if you're taking a colossal. They should probably stay base to base if you're facing the that feat. Even Cygnar has a great mechanic. Strangeways and his stupidly good d3+3 healing. Almost ensures you have all systems functioning. (If you're allowed to spread the healing, which I'm pretty sure you are. correct me otherwise) Now before y'all cry he has some perceived disadvantage. I don't care. That's not the argument. The piece exists and is a really, really, good mechanic. That is the only statement I am making. I personally use a Stormclad to e-leap those mechanics to death (except Arlan of Course)
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 26, 2017 14:54:32 GMT
Most of the time though, mechanics are taken. At least I'd see it as a really good idea if you're taking a colossal. They should probably stay base to base if you're facing the that feat. Even Cygnar has a great mechanic. Strangeways and his stupidly good d3+3 healing. Almost ensures you have all systems functioning. (If you're allowed to spread the healing, which I'm pretty sure you are. correct me otherwise) Now before y'all cry he has some perceived disadvantage. I don't care. That's not the argument. The piece exists and is a really, really, good mechanic. That is the only statement I am making. I personally use a Stormclad to e-leap those mechanics to death (except Arlan of Course) This might not be the best time for you to bring up how ridiculous Cygnar solo removal is ;-)
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 26, 2017 14:56:54 GMT
I personally use a Stormclad to e-leap those mechanics to death (except Arlan of Course) This might not be the best time for you to bring up how ridiculous Cygnar solo removal is ;-) Its fair and balanced because Arlan is immune, so people do have a counter to it, also he takes up one of your free slots, leaving no room for other stuff...
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 26, 2017 14:59:11 GMT
Please try using mechanics before saying how easy it is to use them.
Mechanics cant follow a charging jack. So they almost always will arrive later.
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