|
Post by challenger on Aug 8, 2018 3:24:45 GMT
The revelator also has trivial access to Mark Target as it got added to the exemplar errant CA. So when discussing the revelators output make sure you factor in its got a caster indepndant rat buff attached to a staple. In EI and creators it has access to sev0 and Eye. Additionally in FM it has access to an incredible melee buff in Hand of Vengeance that allows it to melee at mat 8 ps25 under battle. So every theme either has options to further enhance its shooting or its melee.
Circle does not have this degree of support for the raptor. I'd like to see cost 35 and rof d3+1 to begin with. If the raptor still isnt in a competitive place then increasing its guns pow base to 15 would be the next change id like to see.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on Aug 8, 2018 4:21:43 GMT
macdaddy The SR is better at accuracy, but heavy targets are DEF10-12, so its not a huge issue. A buffed rev is RNG10 and shoots harder with 4 shots, whereas SR buffed is effective rng10 on 2 shot, and spends 2 fury for it. Sure, CotW for free animus, but rev can do EI for Blessed guns. And Rev native ignores Stealth and a rubs it off. And punches way harder. Its flat better for cost.
|
|
|
Post by josephkerr on Aug 8, 2018 5:24:51 GMT
macdaddy The SR is better at accuracy, but heavy targets are DEF10-12, so its not a huge issue. A buffed rev is RNG10 and shoots harder with 4 shots, whereas SR buffed is effective rng10 on 2 shot, and spends 2 fury for it. Sure, CotW for free animus, but rev can do EI for Blessed guns. And Rev native ignores Stealth and a rubs it off. And punches way harder. Its flat better for cost. It’s also a jack. Jacks and beasts =/=.
|
|
|
Post by challenger on Aug 8, 2018 6:44:02 GMT
macdaddy The SR is better at accuracy, but heavy targets are DEF10-12, so its not a huge issue. A buffed rev is RNG10 and shoots harder with 4 shots, whereas SR buffed is effective rng10 on 2 shot, and spends 2 fury for it. Sure, CotW for free animus, but rev can do EI for Blessed guns. And Rev native ignores Stealth and a rubs it off. And punches way harder. Its flat better for cost. It’s also a jack. Jacks and beasts =/=. I think thats a cop out because gargs are sacrificing the inherent strengths of the Fury system. They contribute the least fury for points and are almost never a one model battlegroup. If they use all their fury they cant be transfer targets without some way of stripping fury like the wilder. Colossals on the other hand are very effective one model battlegroups being very very efficient with focus both through empowers and allocations and can be a high value gun platform behind an infantry list without needing to go crazy buying more beasts to cover your fury budget. So i heavily disagree that gargantuans have to be worse colossals because colossals are better in the role
|
|
|
Post by Trollock on Aug 8, 2018 7:01:47 GMT
As a newcomer to the circle forums it is very strange to me that every other thread here seems to turn in to an angry discussion about the game at large rather than the circle faction. I can only hope that the tharn cid opens up at least two more themes for serious play, so that we can discuss THIS faction and how to play it a bit more xp
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on Aug 8, 2018 8:40:30 GMT
As a newcomer to the circle forums it is very strange to me that every other thread here seems to turn in to an angry discussion about the game at large rather than the circle faction. I can only hope that the tharn cid opens up at least two more themes for serious play, so that we can discuss THIS faction and how to play it a bit more xp Give us your view as someone who has probably played more against than with circle. Did you play against the circle gargants? What did you think of them? What did you think of the matches in general?
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Aug 8, 2018 13:26:17 GMT
challenger yeah, at 13 points minimum for a single officer model with mark target, I would not call it trivial. Its almost better to just pay the extra 3 points for a blessed reckoner shot for the same effect. Sevvy0 is a factor, rat 6 is a nice bump, but it requires at minimum a solo and jack investment (even at free its still a solo slot) Sure, the theme benefits and chior are great, But keep in Mind in faction we can also swing the Raptors melee to respectable levels (without primal) in addition to making the gun pow 18. I would also like to point out, that we have a decent number of options that would appreciate the raptors animus, Like the fulcrum, The Kruegers, and druid mist riders. So it offers some support in return. There are pros and cons to both, and both have varying support. I think the raptor is a lot closer in power to the Revelator than you all are realizing. paradox, you seem to disregard that needing 5's and 7's to hit is significantly harder than needing 2's and 4's. Its a very relevant difference in accuracy. The revelator is likely to miss with the shots it does not boost, meaning at best you get 1 or 2 boosts from it with the main guns, putting only very slightly above the raptors range output for raw damage. (Less actually if you have to boost both the main guns) I do agree, with battle and Potentially blessed or HoV, the Revelator is more respectable in melee. Perhaps the raptor needs a bump in that direction instead of the gun? As far as stealth removal/ignoring, keep in mind the raptor has its own support to bring it up to level, its animus is a decent buff to our electrical spells, as well as it's ability to naturally disrupt warjacks and significantly better infantry removal. Trollock, I do actually think there is some meaningful discussion happening on this thread, even if it is heated. It's good to have some conversations about models we all want to see put in a playable place so sort out disagreements and concerns before we go into a CiD. Helps us have a more unified opinion and helps the CiD be more productive instead of arguing during the actual cycle about what we want to change. I would say, based on past CiD's there is more effectiveness for the community pushing a particular idea to the devs as a group, than everyone just throwing different ideas at the devs to see which one sticks.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on Aug 8, 2018 13:33:38 GMT
Is it heated? I dont see that. I encourage readers to be conscious not to inject tone into text. RE the SR, if it will stay at 37, Id like to see marked improvements to make it worth cost. He gun currently doesnt cut it, and seems its itended primary use. But if it needs to melee more, then Id be open to some improvement there. If combined arms, its still generally lacking. Mainly, Im just overly ready for this CID.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Aug 8, 2018 13:37:12 GMT
Is it heated? I dont see that. I encourage readers to be conscious not to inject tone into text. RE the SR, if it will stay at 37, Id like to see marked improvements to make it worth cost. He gun currently doesnt cut it, and seems its itended primary use. But if it needs to melee more, then Id be open to some improvement there. If combined arms, its still generally lacking. Mainly, Im just overly ready for this CID. I actually didn't think anyone was being condescending or unreasonable, but internets, and intent and all that lol I am pretty pumped for CiD as well, I love the raptor model and want an excuse to field one so bad!
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Aug 8, 2018 15:33:13 GMT
Heh ... Trollock this isn't even close to heated. If you want to see heated go back through the CID discussion thread to something like page 10. Now that's heated.
The only thing that really gets this part of the forum riled is when we get people who don't really play the faction putting out misleading or wrong information trying to tell us why we're wrong. I don't agree with Mac on this one but at least he's using the correct stats and actual game experience to defend his position.
As for why we devolve into game in general discussions I think this group has some of the biggest faction diversity among the regular contributors on these forums.
Me - Circle, Cygnar, Protectorate, Trolls Mac - Circle, Protectorate, trolls, others? Paradox - Circle and Protectorate Juris - Circle, Cygnar and I believe Khador
Just to point out some the most regular posters. Others feel free to chime in with your factions but I know I see you guys all over the faction sections.
By comparison I look at the names in the Ret, trolls, skorne and legion forums and barely see them post anywhere else.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Aug 8, 2018 15:48:37 GMT
streetpizza No skorne, Circle Protectorate, and sometimes Trolls I also randomly proxy or play games with other peoples factions for fun and learning.
|
|
|
Post by challenger on Aug 9, 2018 2:34:48 GMT
Out of factions i still feel confident with - Circle, Grymkin and Protectorate.
I used to play Skorne and Cygnar seriously but cygnar was beginning of mk3 for a while and skorne was pre-protectorate and im not as experienced with them anymore
|
|
|
Post by josephkerr on Aug 9, 2018 3:59:18 GMT
It’s also a jack. Jacks and beasts =/=. I think thats a cop out because gargs are sacrificing the inherent strengths of the Fury system. They contribute the least fury for points and are almost never a one model battlegroup. If they use all their fury they cant be transfer targets without some way of stripping fury like the wilder. Colossals on the other hand are very effective one model battlegroups being very very efficient with focus both through empowers and allocations and can be a high value gun platform behind an infantry list without needing to go crazy buying more beasts to cover your fury budget. So i heavily disagree that gargantuans have to be worse colossals because colossals are better in the role Why not compare it to a 37 point Gargantuan, the Archangel? Same range, same animus mechanic, both deceptively mobile. Going out of system to compare to jacks seems unnecessary. And for the record, the SR is quite similar to the Archangel, and the Archangel is a pretty good beast.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Aug 9, 2018 12:05:20 GMT
I think thats a cop out because gargs are sacrificing the inherent strengths of the Fury system. They contribute the least fury for points and are almost never a one model battlegroup. If they use all their fury they cant be transfer targets without some way of stripping fury like the wilder. Colossals on the other hand are very effective one model battlegroups being very very efficient with focus both through empowers and allocations and can be a high value gun platform behind an infantry list without needing to go crazy buying more beasts to cover your fury budget. So i heavily disagree that gargantuans have to be worse colossals because colossals are better in the role Why not compare it to a 37 point Gargantuan, the Archangel? Same range, same animus mechanic, both deceptively mobile. Going out of system to compare to jacks seems unnecessary. And for the record, the SR is quite similar to the Archangel, and the Archangel is a pretty good beast. Yet talk to legion players and they'll tell you that the AA is also tragically over costed. So with the mystery boxes there is a strong possibility that I'll now have two SRs ... ... thoughts on how to run them?
|
|
|
Post by paradox on Aug 9, 2018 12:22:00 GMT
Why not compare it to a 37 point Gargantuan, the Archangel? Same range, same animus mechanic, both deceptively mobile. Going out of system to compare to jacks seems unnecessary. And for the record, the SR is quite similar to the Archangel, and the Archangel is a pretty good beast. Yet talk to legion players and they'll tell you that the AA is also tragically over costed. So with the mystery boxes there is a strong possibility that I'll now have two SRs ... ... thoughts on how to run them? Well, if I dont get one in my boxes, Ill offer to take one off your hands for cheap!
|
|