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Post by challenger on Aug 7, 2018 5:58:10 GMT
Okay i think you convinced me. I was a little but hesitant but gargossals really do have some nutso guns. I think d3+1 would be a really interesting test The potential lightning generator leaps could get nuts but then again - theres reasonable counterplay that anyone whos faced cygnar and double storm striders has faced literally that same ampunt of leaps or more I think its also important to note the Judicator and Revelator has access to Mark Target now too. That thing can have double signs and portents (HR) and have its target marked by a unit thats pretty good to just bring anyway. Thats deleting a heavy out of existence with no effort Can someone explain to me why Electro Leap and Lightning Generator are being sold so hard? Because I dont get it. Like, when did Circle ever struggle to clear chaff? Because thats all it does. Clear chaff in a vicinity. Its an incidental benefit. Neither contributes anything at all to single target removal. And its gun is poor vs single targets compared to the field, and its melee is also lackluster. Look at the cost of colossals and gargantuans more focused on troop removal. Its pretty damned low. We’re paying premium prices for discounted performance. No you're correct in that. i was initially quite worried about the idea of d3+1 ROF but the lightning generator aspect is very "why are you dropping chaff vs circle??" and reload[1] or even ROF2 is essentially underpreforming vs the field, especially at 37pts
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Post by jisidro on Aug 7, 2018 8:23:55 GMT
But then you miss out of the boostable pow 15 gun... Well yeah but that’s the trade for better infantry Control For a stormwall or a conquest trading their secundary guns it's great but trading their only shot? For pow10s?
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Post by jisidro on Aug 7, 2018 8:32:57 GMT
Can someone explain to me why Electro Leap and Lightning Generator are being sold so hard? Because I dont get it. Like, when did Circle ever struggle to clear chaff? Because thats all it does. Clear chaff in a vicinity. Its an incidental benefit. I think you're overselling the presence of chaff and the ease with which we can kill victim stat troops. The immortals now being given tested can be easily cleared within the animus and will take a few hits outside, trenchers who will murder the SR easily have to fear the pow10s, satyxis, banes, etc... Are are dangerous for our beasts but all fear leaps. It's not a game changer for us but remember that some themes don't have clads or sentry stones.
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Post by challenger on Aug 7, 2018 9:51:04 GMT
Can someone explain to me why Electro Leap and Lightning Generator are being sold so hard? Because I dont get it. Like, when did Circle ever struggle to clear chaff? Because thats all it does. Clear chaff in a vicinity. Its an incidental benefit. I think you're overselling the presence of chaff and the ease with which we can kill victim stat troops. The immortals now being given tested can be easily cleared within the animus and will take a few hits outside, trenchers who will murder the SR easily have to fear the pow10s, satyxis, banes, etc... Are are dangerous for our beasts but all fear leaps. It's not a game changer for us but remember that some themes don't have clads or sentry stones. Those themes are also bad. Bones is Circle's only competitive theme. So if anything its an argument in the Raptors favour for even more leaping action because its most common theme (Call) doesn't have access to sentry stones
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Post by jisidro on Aug 7, 2018 10:08:51 GMT
Call is a good theme with a great benefit, Tharn and Wolfsworn themes are not spectacular but easily middle of the pack.
The Tharn didn't keep up with the times, wolfsworn wasn't a thing until mk3 and seems it won't be until mk4... beasts are being taken care of so I feel confident we'll have more than bones before the year is out. And IMO CotW is playable ATM, at the very least, with Una2's Flying Circus.
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Post by paradox on Aug 7, 2018 11:46:45 GMT
Call is a good theme with a great benefit, Tharn and Wolfsworn themes are not spectacular but easily middle of the pack. The Tharn didn't keep up with the times, wolfsworn wasn't a thing until mk3 and seems it won't be until mk4... beasts are being taken care of so I feel confident we'll have more than bones before the year is out. And IMO CotW is playable ATM, at the very least, with Una2's Flying Circus. I only play Tharn and living beasts. I have no issues scraping loads of troops off the board.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 7, 2018 11:50:14 GMT
Well yeah but that’s the trade for better infantry Control For a stormwall or a conquest trading their secundary guns it's great but trading their only shot? For pow10s? I mean, back in early mk3 when dark host was a boogeyman I would plop down 2 of those 5" nope zones and my cryx opponent just had to run around them (putting him out of position) or stay behind them (giving me the upper hand in scenario and attrition) It was well worth it then, and in other situations where my opponent has really scary dudes, like sentinels and exemplar. You won't always have a big juicy target for the Pow 15 anyway, and the pow 8 blast damage is super mediocre, so for the 5" AOE of infantry nope I think its worth it. I also think Call of the wild is a perfectly workable theme in a competitive meta. You just have to use lights and Goats, maybe a pureblood or 2. Kaya3 uses goats and birbs or doggos pretty well, Una2 uses birbs really well, I even had a bit of success (and fun) playing a Baldu1 CotW list. If it had a stronger scenario presence, I might have even still been playing that Baldur1 list.
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Post by jisidro on Aug 7, 2018 11:53:42 GMT
Call is a good theme with a great benefit, Tharn and Wolfsworn themes are not spectacular but easily middle of the pack. The Tharn didn't keep up with the times, wolfsworn wasn't a thing until mk3 and seems it won't be until mk4... beasts are being taken care of so I feel confident we'll have more than bones before the year is out. And IMO CotW is playable ATM, at the very least, with Una2's Flying Circus. I only play Tharn and living beasts. I have no issues scraping loads of troops off the board. That doesn't invalidate that the Raptor can do it as well. Our options in CotW are very limited, we either import minions (And we have no partisans to draw upon) or we have to use the tools our beasts give us. I, for one, like the lightning show the Raptor puts on. My issues aren't with that and quite frankly due to the nature of the concept I hardly expect him to run a table like a lot of models do but I do expect solid ranged output, survivability based on a one/a couple of missed attacks and a melee prowess just over a good combat heavy. What do you expect the raptor to be?
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Post by paradox on Aug 7, 2018 11:56:27 GMT
I only play Tharn and living beasts. I have no issues scraping loads of troops off the board. That doesn't invalidate that the Raptor can do it as well. Our options in CotW are very limited, we either import minions (And we have no partisans to draw upon) or we have to use the tools our beasts give us. I, for one, like the lightning show the Raptor puts on. My issues aren't with that and quite frankly due to the nature of the concept I hardly expect him to run a table like a lot of models do but I do expect solid ranged output, survivability based on a one/a couple of missed attacks and a melee prowess just over a good combat heavy. What do you expect the raptor to be? Cheaper
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Post by paradox on Aug 7, 2018 11:56:40 GMT
Or better for cost
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Aug 7, 2018 12:27:51 GMT
You can always say this about any given Model
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Post by jisidro on Aug 7, 2018 12:39:18 GMT
So the concept is ok with you? - Shooty - Fast, flying - High Def, low arm - Underwhelming melee - Electricity centric buffs - Situational buffs against warmachine Are it's just a literal couple of points of contention? If yes, I think we are OK.
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Post by paradox on Aug 7, 2018 12:45:33 GMT
So the concept is ok with you? - Shooty - Fast, flying - High Def, low arm - Underwhelming melee - Electricity centric buffs - Situational buffs against warmachine Are it's just a literal couple of points of contention? If yes, I think we are OK. Im not sure Id agree with the theme “underwhelming in melee.” Especially not when the gun is also underwhelming.
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Post by jisidro on Aug 7, 2018 13:44:03 GMT
Im not sure Id agree with the theme “underwhelming in melee.” Especially not when the gun is also underwhelming. Now we're talking! So either a bump in melee or a bump in ranged output? I'm assuming you are taking into account the previewd changes to the animus... Which would you prefer and why? (Melee bump or ranged bump)
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Post by paradox on Aug 7, 2018 14:12:45 GMT
Im not sure Id agree with the theme “underwhelming in melee.” Especially not when the gun is also underwhelming. Now we're talking! So either a bump in melee or a bump in ranged output? I'm assuming you are taking into account the previewd changes to the animus... Which would you prefer and why? (Melee bump or ranged bump) I suppose that the bump to MAT6 and having 3 initials, even thought the best melee buff is Primal and really horrible to apply if it wont directly win the game, are acceptable. Especially given woldwrath's apparent place as more melee oriented in the wider faction, even if that does little to help things because of how themes now apply to the game (I'm trying to minimize my bias stemming form my own limiting decisions in how I've engaged this faction). So given that, I would like to focus on the gun. It seem like the SR's design is based mainly around shooting, silly as that might seem when you look at its gun in the context of other colossals and gargantuans, and the ability to provide melee help in the late game. I assume this based on its survivability stats. 12/18 won't last long in melee, and its lighter on wounds. Even factoring in Plasma Nimbus and Deceptively Mobile, it just does not look like a piece you want to engage with early and often. And its cost means it will likely trade even at best, or down more often than not. If the SR is to be mainly a gun platform, it needs serious work. The bump to animus range helps, but it's still very silly that it has 10" range animus to bump its 12" range gun. Like, why? Who thought this was a good idea? What's the point of a 12" range when everything else you give the model makes it go closer to shoot effectively? I do like suggestions like Dual Attack, for ROF2 or D3+1. Something to add utility or help it transition to some combined arms role, but mainly looking at helping that gun out. Perhaps:35pts ROFd3+1 POW16 on the gun base Dual Attack. In addition to previewed changes. Yes, that would mean it can shoot at POW18 direct in 10". To which I say, "so what?" That puts its ranged output in the ballpark of other "ranged focused" colossals.
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