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Post by jediguru on Feb 26, 2018 20:55:54 GMT
Yeah, the actual point limit matters less. 90 pts is about right though. If only PP would do this. Free points from themes drive a nail in the coffin of list diversity. Can you imagine what the Mk3 landscape would look like if not for themes?
I still love the game and will continue to advocate it regardless of how much I dislike themes.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Feb 26, 2018 22:31:22 GMT
Yeah, the actual point limit matters less. 90 pts is about right though. If only PP would do this. Free points from themes drive a nail in the coffin of list diversity. Can you imagine what the Mk3 landscape would look like if not for themes? I still love the game and will continue to advocate it regardless of how much I dislike themes. Summed up my feelings exactly, on both counts. -und_ed
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newsun
Junior Strategist
Posts: 140
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Post by newsun on Feb 27, 2018 1:25:47 GMT
These are great ideas, wonder if pp would actually take action such as this?
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 27, 2018 4:35:48 GMT
Should themes only offer model benefits? I'd like to think so...
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Post by snotling on Feb 27, 2018 9:29:03 GMT
Yeah, the actual point limit matters less. 90 pts is about right though. If only PP would do this. Free points from themes drive a nail in the coffin of list diversity. Can you imagine what the Mk3 landscape would look like if not for themes? I still love the game and will continue to advocate it regardless of how much I dislike themes. I honestly think 90Points is to much already, 60 with theme points or 75 without would make for a less cramped experience.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Feb 27, 2018 10:57:12 GMT
imo the points limit is really a non-issue. I suggested 90 for comfort because that's roughly the size people have gotten used to in theme-machine. Really you could take it or leave it, it's not important enough to debate imo.
The one that IS big and would require more looking into / testing / whatever is the removal of points benefits. Obviously I'm strongly for it, but I'd be curious to hear what opponents think? (and I mean think about the idea - I really don't care if you think "PP will never do it", "it defeats the aim of theme-machine for XYZBlah"... we all know these things. This is a call to dream, not be bogged down in a poor reality)
-und_ed
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Post by albertairish on Feb 27, 2018 22:50:21 GMT
Themes are fine. Legion themes just suck. I like building lists in Trollbloods and Minions. Legion is an exercise in frustration.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Feb 28, 2018 5:36:35 GMT
Themes are fine. Legion themes just suck. I like building lists in Trollbloods and Minions. Legion is an exercise in frustration. While it’s true Legion themes are appallingly bad, I find the lack of creativity stifling even in Cryx, and Cryx has probably got the best selection of themes in the game (rivaled maybe by Khador, but I think we have it better in Cryx) -und_ed
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Post by benjamini on Feb 28, 2018 14:12:43 GMT
Despite mostly being a Khador player, I collected some Legion models back in MK II and they have languished in my closet. The big problem I had is that I really liked the Aesthetics of the Blighted Ogrun models... but the aesthetics of most of the legion beasts aren't really my jam so it was hard to find stuff I wanted to buy . The Legion CID did rouse my interest though, so I am watching from afar at this point.
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 28, 2018 20:29:38 GMT
imo the points limit is really a non-issue. I suggested 90 for comfort because that's roughly the size people have gotten used to in theme-machine. Really you could take it or leave it, it's not important enough to debate imo. The one that IS big and would require more looking into / testing / whatever is the removal of points benefits. Obviously I'm strongly for it, but I'd be curious to hear what opponents think? (and I mean think about the idea - I really don't care if you think "PP will never do it", "it defeats the aim of theme-machine for XYZBlah"... we all know these things. This is a call to dream, not be bogged down in a poor reality) -und_ed What should a theme be, in your eyes? I personally would like to see themes be about model benefits. Not free points. If I want to spam models using free points I'll pick one theme and one theme only (Oracles). I would much rather see themes be constructed as follows: Model limitations A hard benefit (something powerful that goes to one specific model/unit, and only one) A soft benefit (something that blankets models or a certain type of model that isn't particularly strong, but is still helpful, particularly if you have large amounts of models that it helps).
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Post by chillychinaman on Feb 28, 2018 20:53:40 GMT
imo the points limit is really a non-issue. I suggested 90 for comfort because that's roughly the size people have gotten used to in theme-machine. Really you could take it or leave it, it's not important enough to debate imo. The one that IS big and would require more looking into / testing / whatever is the removal of points benefits. Obviously I'm strongly for it, but I'd be curious to hear what opponents think? (and I mean think about the idea - I really don't care if you think "PP will never do it", "it defeats the aim of theme-machine for XYZBlah"... we all know these things. This is a call to dream, not be bogged down in a poor reality) -und_ed What should a theme be, in your eyes? I personally would like to see themes be about model benefits. Not free points. If I want to spam models using free points I'll pick one theme and one theme only (Oracles). I would much rather see themes be constructed as follows: Model limitations A hard benefit (something powerful that goes to one specific model/unit, and only one) A soft benefit (something that blankets models or a certain type of model that isn't particularly strong, but is still helpful, particularly if you have large amounts of models that it helps). This. I want themes to create variant ways of playing with models or groups of models. I'd personally like to see theme benefits be changes to models either change how they function or allow them to specialize in a particular area at the expense of another. Ideally, they would be "smallish" changes that wouldn't step on the toes of future #designspace, PP is a model/game company afterall, but don't really warrant creation of new entry. I remember when I first started, I saw an event variant of the Scythean, I think it was called a Duskstalker, that traded in 1POW for the drag-below rule. Not exceedingly powerful overall, but it was cool, and I would've loved to combo that with Mk2 Massacre or Mk3 Fyanna. Then again, Stuff like the MoW BE and Trencher Mechaniks show that PP isn't too averse to faction bloat.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Mar 1, 2018 10:14:55 GMT
imo the points limit is really a non-issue. I suggested 90 for comfort because that's roughly the size people have gotten used to in theme-machine. Really you could take it or leave it, it's not important enough to debate imo. The one that IS big and would require more looking into / testing / whatever is the removal of points benefits. Obviously I'm strongly for it, but I'd be curious to hear what opponents think? (and I mean think about the idea - I really don't care if you think "PP will never do it", "it defeats the aim of theme-machine for XYZBlah"... we all know these things. This is a call to dream, not be bogged down in a poor reality) -und_ed What should a theme be, in your eyes? I personally would like to see themes be about model benefits. Not free points. If I want to spam models using free points I'll pick one theme and one theme only (Oracles). I would much rather see themes be constructed as follows: Model limitations A hard benefit (something powerful that goes to one specific model/unit, and only one) A soft benefit (something that blankets models or a certain type of model that isn't particularly strong, but is still helpful, particularly if you have large amounts of models that it helps). Very much what you said. Again, my ideal example of what a theme should be: Black Industries. Model Limitations? Check. almost no infantry allowed Hard benefit? Check. Carapace Soft benefit? Check. +2" deployment Where Legion falls down so hard is that the benefits are not great, and the limitations are twice as restrictive as other factions' (limiting both battlegroup and infantry) -und_ed
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 1, 2018 12:23:12 GMT
just a quick feedback from my gaming circle. I play casually with them, and not even with SR scenarii. Based on the fact that every army, thanks to the themes, had free solos, we added 12 solo points, usable the same way as warbeast points, but for solos. same for everyone. - we got rid of the themes and restrictions, but added the bonuses of said themes on the profiles that suit the theme best. That sounds like so much more fun than thememachine. I really wish that was official. Maybe it's time for a quasi-official fanmade set of comp or house rules.
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Post by althor on Mar 1, 2018 14:34:39 GMT
thank you Nothing prevents you from doing something similar around you. I did not play a SR scenario in 2 years, outside a few tournaments of course, and boy, was it fun with homemade or web inspired scenariis ^^
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2018 15:06:49 GMT
Very much what you said. Again, my ideal example of what a theme should be: Black Industries. Model Limitations? Check. almost no infantry allowed Hard benefit? Check. Carapace Soft benefit? Check. +2" deployment Where Legion falls down so hard is that the benefits are not great, and the limitations are twice as restrictive as other factions' (limiting both battlegroup and infantry) -und_ed carapace is too strong as a theme benefit. it was only a matter of time before slayer spam became a thing. unyielding is more reasonable, and a benefit we have, which is great, we just don't have enough nephilim to play, and some of the lights are over-costed still. I do agree that on the whole our themes have weaker benefits than a lot of other themes, especially the stronger ones. having switched over to minions and started playing blindwater theme and WWFF, those are what theme benefits should be. WHY CAN"T WE HAVE SHIELD GUARD AS A BENEFIT?
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