Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 16, 2018 4:47:56 GMT
Except ogrun have been a thematic backwater in legion since mk1. Khador, however, has always been defined thematically by their heavy infantry and warjacks. Those are what new players see and go "wow, I want to play that faction!'. I'm pretty sure if pp gave legion players the choice of any of our other persistent themes, (especially dragonspawn) ogrun would have been the bottom of the list. It was on Chain Attack, where they had Aaron Wale on Talking about Cancon. I forget which one of them, but they made the point that this CID, the Man-o-War theme will make Khador into what it was always advertised as. High armor, high power faction of super elite military. In mkII I was super disappointed in Khador because the MoWs sucked, and i got to play with Winter guard. I eventually came to like it but it wasn't what drew me in. Now, the models that originally inspired me to pick up the game in the first place are getting that spotlight and it's awesome. I picked up Legion with the intent of playing beast heavy with huge powerful stompy monsters. Well, Primal Terrors CID fixed some of that by making the carni chassis cheaper, but there's still a lot of problems with running battlegroup heavy in general. Exactly, and your story isn't uncommon either. So many times throughout mk2 we had new players come in, eagerly pick up khador based on - obviously - MoWs and 'jacks, then just be thoroughly disappointed to the point that some just dropped the game entirely. It was really bad how poorly PP managed Khador's 'brand' in Mk2. Now, as you say, they're moving Khador back to what it should focus on, but their perspective on legion is... well... ...utterly Firetrucked up, honestly. Their idea going into mk3 of moving legion away from warbeasts was completely asinine, and a lot of their decisions since then have been questionable at best. The writing is definitely on the wall here that PP has no rudder for Legion at all right now. It sometimes feels like they handed the design direction off to some random third party or something with how utterly tone-deaf they've become.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Feb 16, 2018 7:53:45 GMT
The Khador CID is pretty similar. If you're really into Man-O-Wars, then there's a new list for you that looks pretty good. If you were hoping for things to fundamentally change Khador, you get a few point changes here and there. But I would argue that Khador was in a better place going into the CID, so maybe the rest of Khador didn't really need much. I feel that Legion did/does, and it didn't really happen. Made an account so I could express my thoughts. I really agree with what you are saying here: I feel that MoW was the major problem area in Khador, and it is being resolved. Black Fleet took the major problem remaining in Cryx and resolved it. The problem with Everblight is that the Ogrun were one of many major problem areas. So basically, if you don’t care about the Ogrun, there is very little to be excited about. Even the Carni chassis changes only actually affect 2 themes. I dabble in several factions, so I don’t think this is a “grass is greener” situation for me. I feel that far more of my non-legion pieces are playable compared to my legion ones, and have grown bored with playing the same couple of things that DO work. I'm in the same boat as Zotz here. I have 4 factions, and Legion is so underwhelming every time I start building a list with them that I inevitably find myself putting a different factions' models on the table. The carni chassis CiD fixes should go some way to fixing this, but really Legion themes are Firetrucking awful. For anyone determinedly defending Legion themes, I think the best example of how low Legion themes have set the bar is actually Oracles. Recognised almost universally as Legion's best theme, oracles is actually a poor theme. The theme benefits are marginal at best (Legion doesn't really struggle to get our upkeeps out, and most of the lists in it don't even use infantry to benefit from Mirage) and the theme is taken just to have access to your desired toys and get the free points. Look at that statement again - the theme is taken just to play on a level playing field with other factions pointswise. That's it... and that's our factions' theme gold standard! Let me compare to my other factions. In Grymkin I have dark menagerie, which gives me a massive leg up on starting the corpse game rolling, access to gremlin swarms, and extra utility on my gremlin swarms. I have Bump in the night that gives me extra utility (ambush) on a unit of murder crows and lets all my infantry shake KD, especially good on tough infantry like dread rots and piggybacks. Both themes allow me to play lots of free points, because they're functional themes. Cryx I'm going to focus on the true gold standard of themes in WM/H, Black Industries. Not only am I getting a bonus 2" deployment (which can be back-breakingly powerful in some lists, Gaspy3 comes to mind), but with Carapace on my heavies I enable a completely different playstyle to the faction, and make certain models (slayer, seether) competitively viable where previously they were not. Oh, I also get the expected free points. Circle admittedly is not in a great place theme-wise, but even circle leaves Legion in the dust by comparison. I can play Bones and now no longer be terrified that my Wolds will lose a system and be crippled outside of playing Baldur. I have a deployment buff that makes up for the slow SPD of my rock monsters. By the by, i get the free points as well. I'm sure the trend I'm noting is obvious - good themes bring something new to the table, while ticking the box of free points. We're playing Oracles as our beast theme because it's the only sane way to tick that box, but the end result is instead of those full descriptions I gave earlier for good themes, in Oracles we just have "I get my free points". Ugh. Sorry, this turned into a bit of rant. I'll get back to painting OW3 now. -und_ed
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 8:59:25 GMT
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Feb 16, 2018 13:31:22 GMT
And yet until Oracles got nerfed it was one of the most hated themes of the community. Screams of "OP" everywhere when the lists never even used the benefits... "You get to just take all the beasts you want and free support". Yet free forge seers, Ret mechanics, vassals, wracks, Strangeways, ILO, necrotechs, warwitch sirens, and all those other free support models are just fine...
Legion themes are built like there is some fantastical unicorn just waiting to be released. Some synergistic nephilim to bring all the others up from the dirt. Some grand magic based unit that does something entirely new. Something with wings or broken knees (striders) that just completely upsets the gods awful lack of damage in Ravens.
If Anamag and chosen come out with any semblence of power remaining, they are the "unicorns" of PT.
Either way I have other factions. Legion is a puzzle that requires a different approach. While I can grumble that I have 2 heavies, 3 lights, a lesser warlock, 2 free solos and 5 units in my Blindwater theme for Maelok. Said list would still likely loose outright to anything I put half my mind to in Legion.
[Edit] Before having that last idea taken as "Legion is OP if you can do that". Gators severely lack guns or gun defense. Legion haz good gunz.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Feb 16, 2018 18:44:09 GMT
And yet until Oracles got nerfed it was one of the most hated themes of the community. Screams of "OP" everywhere when the lists never even used the benefits... "You get to just take all the beasts you want and free support". Yet free forge seers, Ret mechanics, vassals, wracks, Strangeways, ILO, necrotechs, warwitch sirens, and all those other free support models are just fine... To be fair, the community grumbling came at a time before the theme-pocalypse when there were really only 2 themes that let you max out on free points while bringing the toys you wanted. after the theme-pocalypse there really was no justification for any grumbling, but I imagine the nerf-buff machine was already in motion by that point. -und_ed
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Post by althor on Feb 25, 2018 15:40:56 GMT
just a quick feedback from my gaming circle. I play casually with them, and not even with SR scenarii. We all felt the same in the last months or so, the lack of variety in our lists. with the themes out we found ourselves with 3 or 4 lists, depending on the number of playable themes out there. Changing casters was merely a change, the list remained the same. We missed the pleasure of list building to sum up ^^ So we did our own little cid regarding the themes, it's not much, and we certainly did not test it enough to make it balanced, but at least we have different lists now, and we never face the same list as well. Here are the changes we came up with, that got rid of the themes, but brought back some fun in our games. As mentionned before, the numbers are not thoroughly tested, that's just what we do at the moment, in our little 6 man league - Based on the fact that every army, thanks to the themes, had free solos, we added 12 solo points, usable the same way as warbeast points, but for solos. same for everyone. - we got rid of the themes and restrictions, but added the bonuses of said themes on the profiles that suit the theme best. some examples : I play blight, and i have Hex Hunters with apparition, because they were 80% of the time the unit that received said bonus. my waling ogruns have vengeance. raiders have ambush, and we decided to give unyielding to light nephilim beasts. no change in costs though. For circle, we decided to give snacking to heavy living beasts (hungry raging wolf), ambush to the wolves of orboros. constructs may heal 1 in the control phase (though we're not sure about that one) and the blackclad models gain sac pawn : minions. For trolls, we decided to gove dhuninan knot serenity, trollblood warrior models ignore tough in melee, kriel warrior models ignore friendly warrior models for LOS, and 2 4" AOE to place after deployment(same restrictions of placement as the theme describes), that may fade away on a roll of 1 or 2 in maintenance. for skorne after long discussions and brown beers we gave them Skorne warrior models ignore tough in melee, soul takers begin the game with one token, bloodrunners gain ambush, and 1 wall template as the theme whose name I don't remember describes. you get the idea, I won't list all the factions, we tried to get rid of the model restrictions, and to include the bonuses on the native profiles. So far so good, we brought back some models I forgot about, and we face each time a different challenge ^^ that was our 2 cents, only applicable to casual games and long time gaming partners of course. Enjoy
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Feb 26, 2018 8:32:32 GMT
Nice fix, althor.
Honestly I'd take the simplest, most direct approach to fixing themes:
1) All themes lose the free points. 2) raise the standard point size to 90 points
The second is just that people have gotten used to a larger game thanks to free points, and so it keeps that game size. Honestly it's not essential. The first means themes live and die by the bonuses they give, and bad themes will be ignored while good themes will be played, but you won't have a points deficit holding a gun to your head if you don't want to play in theme.
Pipe dreams, I know. I'm with Haight here, I really despise the way themes have been implemented and what they've done to the WM gaming landscape.
-und_ed
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Post by althor on Feb 26, 2018 11:47:24 GMT
you're right, that's more straight forward! but what about model restrictions, you would get rid of it too?
have fun!
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Feb 26, 2018 12:54:57 GMT
Model restrictions are what makes a theme a theme, and the trade-off of synergies for extra rules in theme bonuses is fair imo.
It's just the awful situation of playing down 15 points playing out of theme that makes it such a kick in the nadgers.
-und_ed
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Post by althor on Feb 26, 2018 13:08:27 GMT
i don't know the word nadgers but I understood the meaning I understand your opinion, totally true. our modifications are based solely on list building diversity, that's why we got rid of restrictions. I regularly play down 15 points, sometimes make up for it, but it does feel quite unfair yep
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Post by chillychinaman on Feb 26, 2018 17:04:00 GMT
but you won't have a points deficit holding a gun to your head if you don't want to play in theme. You still do, those rules are still worth something. Perhaps they are worth the diversity of running out of theme, but sometimes they won't be. I don't see how this will make out of theme more viable. It may level the playing field between themes where some are able to get a large amount of free stuff. It might also increase list stagnation since some UAs and solos are only played when they can be taken "free."
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Feb 26, 2018 18:03:23 GMT
At that point you're just modding the model cards. So you could, in a sense play with every single theme bonus at once. That sounds like it could go way off the handles really quick. Apparition Hex Hunters screening for Vengeance ogrun and unyielding Nephilim? You just might have a list to compete with a bog standard warmachine list [/spiteful jab]
But if it works for you group, by all means carry on.
Though the basic idea of 90 point games and removing the entire free points idea I think would be enough to open up plenty of list options.
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Post by snotling on Feb 26, 2018 18:16:51 GMT
At that point you're just modding the model cards. So you could, in a sense play with every single theme bonus at once. That sounds like it could go way off the handles really quick. Apparition Hex Hunters screening for Vengeance ogrun and unyielding Nephilim? You just might have a list to compete with a bog standard warmachine list [/spiteful jab] But if it works for you group, by all means carry on. Though the basic idea of 90 point games and removing the entire free points idea I think would be enough to open up plenty of list options. why 90 Points, this game is getting bigger and bigger, and the ruleset can barely handle it now. Leave the 75 and still cut the free points from themes woulb make for far a more enjoyable experience imo.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Feb 26, 2018 18:40:00 GMT
At that point you're just modding the model cards. So you could, in a sense play with every single theme bonus at once. That sounds like it could go way off the handles really quick. Apparition Hex Hunters screening for Vengeance ogrun and unyielding Nephilim? You just might have a list to compete with a bog standard warmachine list [/spiteful jab] But if it works for you group, by all means carry on. Though the basic idea of 90 point games and removing the entire free points idea I think would be enough to open up plenty of list options. why 90 Points, this game is getting bigger and bigger, and the ruleset can barely handle it now. Leave the 75 and still cut the free points from themes woulb make for far a more enjoyable experience imo. Strictly from a perspective that people have gotten used to the free points and like having the options. Bigger games are, in my opinion, more fun. Now that may clearly stem from playing Legion where everything is high point costs. My Minions and Khador lists I can't fill with how much stuff they get to bring. I'm literally just taking things because I have more free points open but the army is already set. So, very wobbly fence to sit on. But still, personal preference entirely at this point. You'd have to get everyone on the same page and agree to w/e rules you want to impose. At that point you might as house rule everything. Make up new scenarios. Play things that are clearly unbalanced but make it some crazy 2 v 1 scenario, super limited turns/clock, ambush a squad of warjacks if certain things trigger, yada yada yada. You're free to do w/e when you get down to it. While there is a massive community that would Wrack you or me for playing anything but steamroller packet <insert current year> it's still just a game. Games are meant to be fun. If you see it more fun to play 35 point games; do it. If you want to play games for a free garg/colossal for each side; do it. The Warmachine/Hordes rule booklet is the infrastructure on which to build. And if some one does go crazy, in a local/casual meta, about it not being SR2017 make sure they have a fully painted army, with no conversion more than 20% of the model, they have submitted their lists ahead of time for review, paid their entry fee, organized their national team, and then after all that; you'll play a game with them. If they want to make you jump through their hoops the play the game... after you're done with your 4 person rumble match of unrivaled destruction... You have the right to make them jump through their own and that will just put them off entirely.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Feb 26, 2018 19:25:04 GMT
Like I said above, the points lift to 90 is purely based on what folks have gotten used to. It's really not all that important.
To answer ChillyChinaman's question, though, I do believe the added flexibility and stronger synergies will make up for most of the loss of thee benefits if you don't have to also compensate for the extra points. Consider how much Lylyth2 loves Azrael and Ravagores, but cannot take both. I'd happily trade in unyielding on bolties and Azrael for the ability to play Ravagores with Lylyth2.
I'm not saying themes wouldn't be played, I'm saying there would be a genuine decision to be made, which is all I really want.
-und_ed
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