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Post by cainuslupus on Feb 12, 2018 20:26:06 GMT
Pagani trying to damage control on Legion facebook is kinda hillarious though. I pay pretty much 0 attention to FB anymore. But I'm curious what happened. Any short summary? Screenshots? Or do I just got hunting for myself? Nothing major, just "look at this great Legion list I love". Unfortunatelly, Thags1 CotD only accentuate that non-character BG options are shit in this theme. Because making Soldiers/Protectors cheaper would be too much work in CiD. Obviously. Yup.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Feb 12, 2018 22:19:01 GMT
This sub forum has kind of just rolled into a grave it seems. I'm just curious as to why. There's a few people here who could really be replaced with spam bots and no one would know that post over every discussion, turning everything into a discussion of how bad things are, regardless of the topic. If you've seen one of their posts, you've seen them all, and it just gets tedious reading through for actual content.
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Post by copperflame on Feb 12, 2018 22:34:24 GMT
I read a bit of that thread - Pagani was doing a bit of defending Thag1 + CotD and was coming across with 'Legion is fine, you need to look at the tools you have' vibe. I followed the conversation a little bit but not too hard.
I don't know what Thag1 + CotD has that is really awesome sauce. You do make your heavies resilient between Unyielding/Death Shroud but that doesn't seem to help me in my particular meta. I'll give it a try anyway (maybe the Fog of War + Raptors is what I'm missing?). Then again - Thag1 is such a good all around caster that there are few lists that he doesn't do well in - but I don't ever recall him being a major factor (outside of the old MK2 Garg resurrection trick).
Anywho, the point was I followed the thread a little and Pagani started the thread with an 'Legion is fine' tone. The toxicity of the Facebook page turns me off easily - I couldn't carry on a conversation about it with him if I wanted to or not.
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 13, 2018 2:03:43 GMT
I read a bit of that thread - Pagani was doing a bit of defending Thag1 + CotD and was coming across with 'Legion is fine, you need to look at the tools you have' vibe. I followed the conversation a little bit but not too hard. I don't know what Thag1 + CotD has that is really awesome sauce. You do make your heavies resilient between Unyielding/Death Shroud but that doesn't seem to help me in my particular meta. I'll give it a try anyway (maybe the Fog of War + Raptors is what I'm missing?). Then again - Thag1 is such a good all around caster that there are few lists that he doesn't do well in - but I don't ever recall him being a major factor (outside of the old MK2 Garg resurrection trick). Anywho, the point was I followed the thread a little and Pagani started the thread with an 'Legion is fine' tone. The toxicity of the Facebook page turns me off easily - I couldn't carry on a conversation about it with him if I wanted to or not. Honestly after some of the things pagani has said about circle I think he has grown out of touch with the community from a competitive standpoint. EG: he said Kromac 1 in CoTW would be his GF drop. which is fine...except ghost pirates kill Kromac or warpwolves on Denny's feat turn even counting in bestial and recursion can really shut down your army. I like pagani a lot, but he is hanging around with bad influences Also Facebook sucks. People get even more aggressive there than they do here.
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Post by josephkerr on Feb 13, 2018 3:13:57 GMT
Im just waiting for CID to publish. I have a lot of ideas and lists i like but most of the hype is over point adjustments and u just never know how those are gonna turn out. But come May Im definitely hitting the LGS with Legion.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 13, 2018 4:29:30 GMT
It wasn't terribly active prior to the CID, and now it's returned to that. We'd already talked to death about what we can do in mk3, so there isn't a ton to discuss now. We had a burst of activity surrounding the CID, but that's quiet until the rules come out, then there will be more activity following final rule changes, and then we'll see some steady activity concerning list-building possibilities once we have concrete rules to meta with. No point getting excited about stuff we don't know about for sure at this point. I read a bit of that thread - Pagani was doing a bit of defending Thag1 + CotD and was coming across with 'Legion is fine, you need to look at the tools you have' vibe. I followed the conversation a little bit but not too hard. I don't know what Thag1 + CotD has that is really awesome sauce. You do make your heavies resilient between Unyielding/Death Shroud but that doesn't seem to help me in my particular meta. I'll give it a try anyway (maybe the Fog of War + Raptors is what I'm missing?). Then again - Thag1 is such a good all around caster that there are few lists that he doesn't do well in - but I don't ever recall him being a major factor (outside of the old MK2 Garg resurrection trick). Anywho, the point was I followed the thread a little and Pagani started the thread with an 'Legion is fine' tone. The toxicity of the Facebook page turns me off easily - I couldn't carry on a conversation about it with him if I wanted to or not. Thagrosh1 does infantry almost as well as he does beasts. CoTD has swordsmen and hex hunters, and he does good things for both.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Feb 13, 2018 5:57:12 GMT
I do wonder if it’s also a side-effect of theme-machine.
Needing to play in a theme is really limiting. I’ve seen excitement and creativity sane over all my factions (Grymkin, Cryx, Circle, Legion). Add to that Legion has by far the worst selection of themes of those 4 (it’s really impressively bad when you make Circle themes look good) and I find myself with almost no interest in building Legion lists.
-und_ed
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 13, 2018 14:52:37 GMT
This sub forum has kind of just rolled into a grave it seems. I'm just curious as to why. Not trying to find a new salt mine or anything. Just worried that the community is on edge or some dire depression. . The months before the CID were spent mainly about what people wanted from the CID. Iv barely seen any discussion on what we get out of the things we do have, so now that the CID is done we return to not having those discussions again? I read a bit of that thread - Pagani was doing a bit of defending Thag1 + CotD and was coming across with 'Legion is fine, you need to look at the tools you have' vibe. Have to say this kinda makes me mad. Sure if you look through the scraps that themepocalypse left legion with there's some servicable lists left to enter a tourney with, but that doesn't equate to fun, inspired lists. I find myself wanting to go out of theme all the time. OoA has an amazing special rule, but an unimpressive list of models to apply it to. CotD has the units (but not the rule) but lacks our buffmachine, has an impressive ammount of precision strike but has to jump through the dumbest hoops to make that stick, has a cool nephbuff but lacks the animi for bloodseer to copy to really shine, and why isn't the forsaken in there? Ravens I just don't like but that's me personal. Terrors looks pretty promising, usefull special rule, lotta beasts, almost plenty of units but really straightforward. I also wonder why "our cruxunit/stoneequivalent hellmouth is in only two themes, one which only half makes sense. Straightforward all around, which is why legion kinda saddens me at the moment. Themes are cool in principle (and balance aside they really were in mk2), but when they wanted to make that the norm I wonder if they realized how much they break a faction's identity when that's all you have. All the themes have a list of things they want not just from a competitive/synergy standpoint, but from a fluffside of things too because "putting everything that flies or shoots together" is an awefull way to make a theme. Sure, we can look at the tools we were left with but I still feel like dr Who without his sonic screwdriver. That's not a good place for a game to be. Having said all that I must add Im kinda excited for eThags in Primal Terrors. Golab and his (supposed) improved speed really opens up his feat in a way Iv wanted for quite a while, amd there's other things
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Post by copperflame on Feb 13, 2018 17:38:45 GMT
Lanz Yea, I get that and I do like Thag1 + Hexies in OoA. I've tried Thag1 + Swords but had more success with Fyanna2 + Swords (due to my Khador-heavy meta). Still, there may be something I'm missing in actual play that I haven't tried yet. dirtyharrypotter right now, I'm waiting and focusing on the positives. (if all things stay) eThags has me excited to play him again. I have to try out the new Abby. Even though I am not a fan of the model design, Golab's abilities are awesomesauce. I also am looking forward to running Choosen. Gorag + min unit of Mongrels has a lot of value. I'm dusting off my Warspears and giving the BlightBringer a new coat of paint. I even picked up an ArchAngel for cheap though not terribly what is most optimal for him yet - (hopefully I don't get screwed and the CID changes don't stick ). Back on topic... someone stated that right now Legion does not have great representation inside of PP proper, someone to really love/champion them. That (and maybe some holdout of how LoE was OP in MK1/2?) may explain some of the current state.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 13, 2018 17:49:44 GMT
Fyanna2 does swordsmen better than Thagrosh1, I feel. My experience has been more combined arms, since you can take the 3 characters, a full unit of swordsmen, a full unit of hex hunters, get both CAs for free, and have 10 points left for stuff (x2 warlords in my case). Fyanna2 does the swordsmen better, but thagrosh1 does the hex hunters and the beast brick better. conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0uaCg_aReKfUfUbkbla_b0Legion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Children of the Dragon (Thagrosh 1) Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight [+28] - Azrael [21] - Typhon [24] - Zuriel [18] Blighted Nyss Warlord [5] Blighted Nyss Warlord [5] Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (max) [15] - Bayal, Hound of Everblight [0(6)] Blighted Nyss Swordsmen (max) [15] - Blighted Nyss Swordsman Abbot & Champion [0(6)]
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Feb 13, 2018 21:07:56 GMT
[tinfoilHat][salt] Pagani has posted more replies (on CiD threads) in the last 2 days than he did in the entire last 2 weeks of the Legion CiD. #evidence [/salt][/tinfoilHat]
The "Legion has tools" argument is garbage. Yes, We've had tools. Everyone has tools. Secret Masters in Circle just won top spot in a tourney. A theme that has gotten more hate and despair than CotD ever got. We all have a vast array of tools. The tourney winners have used those tools before, obviously. It's about having few tools and using the same thing over and over and over again.
Our tools were L3 and Abby2 fooooor eeeeeveeeer. Then F2 when she came out and we were like "yay something new" then they nerfed OoA.
I can win games regularly with the "worst" casters in the faction. So no, we're not dying for good/power models. The problem is every F*ing list looks exactly the same. Swordsmen/Warlord? Check. Character warbeast? Check. Ungodly amounts of Fury management because I took more than TWO beasts? Check. Theme list to make all the support models free? Check. Stupidly costed, high powered Gun on a light warbeast? USE THEM ALL! (seriously near all my lists run 2 bolt throwers. they are just dumb)
I don't want power. I don't want you to tell me after the OGRUN CID that it would be best to use a theme full of NYSS! I mean did he really not think the Ogrun CiD models would be a good future list/toolbox?
I digress.
Generalizations aside. I wish for new inspiration. I have not seen any (in-faction) in a long time. Ice witches didn't do it. This CiD didn't either. I'm more excited for my Croc Pot in the mail than anything. I really plan to put that in a few different lists, along with Valkyries and the better equipped Thrullg. So it's just...weird. I don't think it's a good sign that I'm happier about minion models releasing, to use in a non-minion army, than I am about Legion models being released.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 13, 2018 21:23:09 GMT
[tinfoilHat][salt] Pagani has posted more replies (on CiD threads) in the last 2 days than he did in the entire last 2 weeks of the Legion CiD. #evidence [/salt][/tinfoilHat] The "Legion has tools" argument is garbage. Yes, We've had tools. Everyone has tools. Secret Masters in Circle just won top spot in a tourney. A theme that has gotten more hate and despair than CotD ever got. We all have a vast array of tools. The tourney winners have used those tools before, obviously. It's about having few tools and using the same thing over and over and over again. Our tools were L3 and Abby2 fooooor eeeeeveeeer. Then F2 when she came out and we were like "yay something new" then they nerfed OoA. I can win games regularly with the "worst" casters in the faction. So no, we're not dying for good/power models. The problem is every F*ing list looks exactly the same. Swordsmen/Warlord? Check. Character warbeast? Check. Ungodly amounts of Fury management because I took more than TWO beasts? Check. Theme list to make all the support models free? Check. Stupidly costed, high powered Gun on a light warbeast? USE THEM ALL! (seriously near all my lists run 2 bolt throwers. they are just dumb) I don't want power. I don't want you to tell me after the OGRUN CID that it would be best to use a theme full of NYSS! I mean did he really not think the Ogrun CiD models would be a good future list/toolbox? I digress. Generalizations aside. I wish for new inspiration. I have not seen any (in-faction) in a long time. Ice witches didn't do it. This CiD didn't either. I'm more excited for my Croc Pot in the mail than anything. I really plan to put that in a few different lists, along with Valkyries and the better equipped Thrullg. So it's just...weird. I don't think it's a good sign that I'm happier about minion models releasing, to use in a non-minion army, than I am about Legion models being released. Other factions beckon... Seriously, jumping ship completely reinvigorated my interest in the game. Better to look for greener pastures than to keep wishing your pasture had grass.
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Post by albertairish on Feb 14, 2018 20:04:57 GMT
Well, look, ultimately I think the faction is in a not-terrible spot with a few competitive lists. It can compete and win.
But I left the Trollbloods and Minions CIDs feeling genuinely enthusiastic and invigorated. Changes to the Krielstone and Runebearer make even playing the same old Trollblood lists so much better. Ditto for Minions with the Soul Slave and Bone Shrine. New and changed pieces that made the entire faction so much better and easier to run.
Legion CID didn't do the same for me. Old lists can maybe squeeze in a another solo or upgrade a beast, and I'm not sure that Primal Terrors does anything that the beast bricks of old don't do. It's cool that the models will get used again, but there was nothing changed faction-wide to make me excited about pulling Legion off the shelf.
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Post by copperflame on Feb 14, 2018 22:00:04 GMT
That is great feedback... I wonder if there is a concussive method of providing that to PP without coming off as @$$hats.
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Post by maximumhippo on Feb 15, 2018 7:48:21 GMT
Gotta agree here with albertairish. The very first day of the Primal terrors CID I read through the rules, and then messaged my troll and cygnar guys asking if they felt the same sort of underwhelmed feeling when their factions went through the process. The response I got was a resounding "No". they all were totally psyched up and excited when theirs hit. Same deal with our minions guy. None of PT was particularly interesting, and frankly, all the old stuff changing was more exciting than the new stuff. I wonder if maybe the internet wishlisting and theorycrafting had something to do with that? there was so much speculation, particularly surrounding the nephilim, that maybe I fell into the trap of thinking that it was all going to be better. Or maybe the success of the Troll/Cygnar/minion cycles had me hopeful. I dunno. The end of it though is that I'm not playing anything different, and I'm not looking to play anything different.
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