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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 11, 2017 0:03:05 GMT
snarlyyowYour own comments. From 1st to latest ones Your next following statement seems like a total contradiction. I mean if you played him plenty you would have not needed to say this in that same exact post. I'm sorry with that last statement you basically admitted you really haven't played. Even if your play time slowed as of October that would be a few good months to have a grasp. I mean my play time slowed down majorly between June and August but I was able to play enough to understand Stryker1 double colossal list wasn't that strong in SR17 and Storm Division version of him was better. Now it seems like you didn't even read what I suggested. You just swept it under the rug and claimed it is too strong. Shall I take you down a walk on memory lane on what else is allegedly too strong that we screamed OP! at prior to having it? I mean that in itself would totally derail the thread but I've heard folks say that before when someone suggests something and yet PP comes out with that exact thing and it didn't break the meta. 1st things first If Voltaic Snare changes to what I suggested would be a single target anti-battlegroup spell. Want to know what other spell exists in the game thats similar to that but bigger in application? Strangehold. Thats a big "F U" spell at 2 cost. These spells work in similar ways and I am suggesting it becomes more expensive and losing the AOE. Sorry if I fail to see the outrage. 2nd the feat You say thats ungodly strong? I'm sorry, have you seen Denny1's feat and Haley2's feat (even after rework). There are plenty of stronger feats that have bigger applications compared to this. This suggestion to the feat only effects battlegroups and doesn't have the -4 def debuff on top of it. Pow 15 suggests is enough to damage armor 20 warjacks/beasts but at the same time isn't enough to completely destroy one from out the gate without focus fire. In its current state, the electric damage type of his feat (while thematic) and disruption can get negated. 3rd Overpower/extra ability I have a love & never use relationship with Overpower. I see its applications but the majority of the time I rather use the focus for other purposes. I also feel having an extra ability that can make up for a few more corner case situations (because lets face it, Nemo is very pigeonholed) The idea of awe/blessing of morrow was just one of them. Giving him more options (like the suggestion of adding scramble) doesn't hurt. Remember they reworked other casters like Kraye and made him extraordinary. They can do the same here... heck we can have a whole CID about it.
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 11, 2017 1:30:42 GMT
I'm sorry if my frequency of play with Nemo1 is confusing, perhaps i should have worded myself clearer. Nemo1 was in my pair from Spring through Lock and Load and until a month ago. After Lock and Load I took Nemo1 to at least 3 tournaments: A 15+ player masters at Terracrux, a 30 person team tournament at Mox Boarding House, and the I5 team championship. I also took him to several smaller events. I do one big event per month so my November event I did not take Nemo1 and regretted not.
Stranglehold is a great spell but let's not pretend it's a 2 cost spell, please. You gotta damage which means it's almost always a 3 cost spell. Against many colossals you need 10s and if you fail it burns 3 focus and gives nothing in return. I'm not suggesting stranglehold is bad because obviously that's insane, but Voltaic Snare is an AOE so it can hit multiple targets if they're presented, doesn't need to directly hit, and doesn't require a damage roll. The effect, though having limited targets, is well worth it's piddly 2 cost. If I were a DEV I would change the spell to affect warbeast otherwise it's a fantastic spell that for 2 cost is frequently game winning.
His feat is fine. If it were better it would be better, obviously. But disruption is really strong in MKIII and will continue to be so.
Dynamo is likely the best jack in faction, giving him a fourth focus is massive especially when it can be done turn after turn. A stormclad with 4 focus and Dynamo at range kill a colossal in one go. There's real value there and one that isn't easy for me to brush off.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 11, 2017 2:13:13 GMT
His feat is fine. If it were better it would be better, obviously. But disruption is really strong in MKIII and will continue to be so. I'm sorry I don't know how you can say that with a straight face when every faction but 2 have Empower and most of those factions that have access to Empower can bring 2 to 3 solos to hand it out. Add in the fact in Cygnar they can just bring Storm Division and be completely immune to the feat means you don't have a feat. Disruption while a potent ability, was a lot stronger in MK1 and MK2 when many factions had no way to get out of being disrupted. This is the reason why I want it changed simply because so many things get around it. Yes, I get that chances are you will probably want to boost the damage to ensure it goes off. That a 2 cost spell with spending 1 to boost damage can net you no result but also understand that a 2 cost spell that you can cast once and it only affects warjacks means that the warjack, if it has range capabilities, will still contribute. Its not a shutdown, its a minor speed bump. The AOE is nice but a decent player will remember to spread out to ensure not more then one is caught. The only place were the spell in its current form outshines what I am suggesting is against spell immune models simply because you can put something within AOE range and still clip the model. Again the reason why I am suggesting what I am suggesting you can cast this spell multiple times and it works against beasts/warjacks alike. Its potent enough to target 1 beast/jack but not overpowered enough even if you target 3 separate jacks/beasts. The 3 cost is perfect for that.
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 11, 2017 3:55:16 GMT
I'm sorry I don't know how you can say that with a straight face when every faction but 2 have Empower and most of those factions that have access to Empower can bring 2 to 3 solos to hand it out. Well, I'm not really sure that Nemo1 is a Khador drop, so that point is moot. Retribution, yes, retribution is a real issue with Empower. But, you know, if you're disrupted you can't shake knockdown. If Empower is on the table via arcanists I use slams. In fact, slams are a very large part of my Nemo1 game plan. All light jacks are really slambots in disguise. First, a warjack that is Voltaic Snared can contribute at range. Totally true. But I want to be real clear here: Nemo1 has Firetrucking Deceleration. All my heavies are ARM20, 21, and 23 or more. So in most circumstances my opponents are dice off 5 or more. Quite simply, it's too much too chew through and Nemo1 can claim both a ranged and melee alpha. You wanna stay out of Nemo's melee threat ranges? Dynamo, my stormclads, and the Fireflies will shoot you. Want to come into my melee ranges? My jacks have four focus and a swappable strength buff. Plus, even if you have empower, even if I don't take it away from you, you can't get enough of it to fight back after I feat. Okay, maybe you shake disruption somewhere and fuel 1 jack, and maybe you kill one of my jacks when you do so. I still have more ranged presence, you still give me a jack and have to stay out of my threat. Voltaic Snare is not a "minor speedbump". Having your colossal or models like Imperatus unable to charge, turn after turn, is a big deal. It takes important, damage dealing models right out of the game and either forces your opponent to back up or take an alpha. I agree that Stranglehold is a fantastic spell but one thing that really separates VS from SH is the ability to have the resources available to cast it again and again and again. SH is frequently a resource sink that you don't really want to use turn after turn. VS isn't. It's cheap, especially in the Nemo1 economy.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Dec 11, 2017 6:53:28 GMT
If people want to stay out of your melee range they will be shot by a bunch of range 10 guns?
Voltaic snare prevents a charge and nothing else. It is *ok* at best. People who are charging with their colossals have already broken your back with its guns. Colossal melee is a rare thing in this game.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 11, 2017 7:42:51 GMT
If people want to stay out of your melee range they will be shot by a bunch of range 10 guns? Voltaic snare prevents a charge and nothing else. It is *ok* at best. People who are charging with their colossals have already broken your back with its guns. Colossal melee is a rare thing in this game. If only Nemo had a spell that have extra armour against shooting...
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Dec 11, 2017 7:45:12 GMT
If people want to stay out of your melee range they will be shot by a bunch of range 10 guns? Voltaic snare prevents a charge and nothing else. It is *ok* at best. People who are charging with their colossals have already broken your back with its guns. Colossal melee is a rare thing in this game. If only Nemo had a spell that have extra armour against shooting... Extra Armour doesn't immediately make you win the gun fight. I can still out shoot nemo's army with other shooting armies. Especially if your list is packed up with melee models like stormclads.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 11, 2017 7:54:55 GMT
If only Nemo had a spell that have extra armour against shooting... Extra Armour doesn't immediately make you win the gun fight. I can still out shoot nemo's army with other shooting armies. Especially if your list is packed up with melee models like stormclads. Can you please give an example? Cheers (Also Stormclads have guns)
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Dec 11, 2017 8:41:39 GMT
Extra Armour doesn't immediately make you win the gun fight. I can still out shoot nemo's army with other shooting armies. Especially if your list is packed up with melee models like stormclads. Can you please give an example? Cheers (Also Stormclads have guns) Any of the superlative gunlines such as Vlad 1, any of the blessed gunlines, rasheth, or hybrid power gunlines like Denny. It may be OK into cygnar, but that's more on the back of electrical immunity than anything nemo brings. I would wager nemo 1 does worse vs gravediggers than a lot of other cygnar matchups because while electroleaps are good vs trenchers you can good play your way through to crush the plastic jacks that you bring while nemo has a scenario weakness due to him wanting to play heavy metal or storm division. Of course stormclads have guns, they are also short range enough that you will often have models walk onto melee with them and kill them even if they are voltaic snared (which takes a lancer to be in place who is also vulnerable)
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 11, 2017 9:17:12 GMT
Can you please give an example? Cheers (Also Stormclads have guns) Any of the superlative gunlines such as Vlad 1, any of the blessed gunlines, rasheth, or hybrid power gunlines like Denny. It may be OK into cygnar, but that's more on the back of electrical immunity than anything nemo brings. I would wager nemo 1 does worse vs gravediggers than a lot of other cygnar matchups because while electroleaps are good vs trenchers you can good play your way through to crush the plastic jacks that you bring while nemo has a scenario weakness due to him wanting to play heavy metal or storm division. Of course stormclads have guns, they are also short range enough that you will often have models walk onto melee with them and kill them even if they are voltaic snared (which takes a lancer to be in place who is also vulnerable) You can out-threat Vlad 1 rockets with your chain lightning, all you need is 1 turn to kill 4 - 5 rockets and they are suddenly a lot less scary.
Derp Turtles are egregiously powerful, so I would not count being weak into them a flaw in a caster.
Cryx probably gets the other list in your pair
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Dec 11, 2017 10:05:25 GMT
Any of the superlative gunlines such as Vlad 1, any of the blessed gunlines, rasheth, or hybrid power gunlines like Denny. It may be OK into cygnar, but that's more on the back of electrical immunity than anything nemo brings. I would wager nemo 1 does worse vs gravediggers than a lot of other cygnar matchups because while electroleaps are good vs trenchers you can good play your way through to crush the plastic jacks that you bring while nemo has a scenario weakness due to him wanting to play heavy metal or storm division. Of course stormclads have guns, they are also short range enough that you will often have models walk onto melee with them and kill them even if they are voltaic snared (which takes a lancer to be in place who is also vulnerable) You can out-threat Vlad 1 rockets with your chain lightning, all you need is 1 turn to kill 4 - 5 rockets and they are suddenly a lot less scary.
Derp Turtles are egregiously powerful, so I would not count being weak into them a flaw in a caster.
Cryx probably gets the other list in your pair
Yep, and the Vlad player will let you get to those rockets with no problems whatsoever. Facing powerful stuff suddenly doesn't count them out from the competition. They exist, deal with it. Fluffy snowflake pieces aren't ok because you don't consider powerful stuff to count. You are also ignoring things like issyria, legion (for all its garbageness as a faction) has enough wraithbane to put stuff into the ground. Decel it's fine but it doesn't suddenly make your army immune to shooting and reprisal, especially when every gun you've been talking about has been 10" range or less.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 11, 2017 10:14:12 GMT
You can out-threat Vlad 1 rockets with your chain lightning, all you need is 1 turn to kill 4 - 5 rockets and they are suddenly a lot less scary.
Derp Turtles are egregiously powerful, so I would not count being weak into them a flaw in a caster.
Cryx probably gets the other list in your pair
Yep, and the Vlad player will let you get to those rockets with no problems whatsoever. Facing powerful stuff suddenly doesn't count them out from the competition. They exist, deal with it. Fluffy snowflake pieces aren't ok because you don't consider powerful stuff to count. You are also ignoring things like issyria, legion (for all its garbageness as a faction) has enough wraithbane to put stuff into the ground. Decel it's fine but it doesn't suddenly make your army immune to shooting and reprisal, especially when every gun you've been talking about has been 10" range or less. How exactly does Vlad protect his rockets against chain lightning? I am not saying Derp Turtles don't count, but saying 'but your list is no good into them' is like saying 'but your list is no good into Mk2 Haley 2', my point is pretty much nothing is good into them, because they are too powerful, so worrying about them is kinda pointless.
I personally would include Storm Lances in my Nemo 1 list with a pair of Storm Towers, they threat 20" as spark nodes, Mage Hunter Strike Force threat 18", if you can kill a few before Issyria feats then you are in a good spot.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Dec 11, 2017 11:14:40 GMT
Yep, and the Vlad player will let you get to those rockets with no problems whatsoever. Facing powerful stuff suddenly doesn't count them out from the competition. They exist, deal with it. Fluffy snowflake pieces aren't ok because you don't consider powerful stuff to count. You are also ignoring things like issyria, legion (for all its garbageness as a faction) has enough wraithbane to put stuff into the ground. Decel it's fine but it doesn't suddenly make your army immune to shooting and reprisal, especially when every gun you've been talking about has been 10" range or less. How exactly does Vlad protect his rockets against chain lightning? I am not saying Derp Turtles don't count, but saying 'but your list is no good into them' is like saying 'but your list is no good into Mk2 Haley 2', my point is pretty much nothing is good into them, because they are too powerful, so worrying about them is kinda pointless.
I personally would include Storm Lances in my Nemo 1 list with a pair of Storm Towers, they threat 20" as spark nodes, Mage Hunter Strike Force threat 18", if you can kill a few before Issyria feats then you are in a good spot.
Vlad protects his rockets by having troops between you and them. He also has other guns. You will, for instance, have to deal with a conquest rompa stomping around shooting your stuff and having a 10" Threat range while voltaic snared and up to 15" if not. My point isn't that nemo 1 loses every game, it's that acting as if decel is a cure all for guns doesn't reflect reality. Nemo 1 has a lot of focus for a bunch of inefficient abilities. If he had average to good spells with 11 focus then he would feel strong but right now you can barely do any of your big tricks without being drained dry and it's not like his tricks are exceptionally powerful.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 11, 2017 11:23:13 GMT
How exactly does Vlad protect his rockets against chain lightning? I am not saying Derp Turtles don't count, but saying 'but your list is no good into them' is like saying 'but your list is no good into Mk2 Haley 2', my point is pretty much nothing is good into them, because they are too powerful, so worrying about them is kinda pointless.
I personally would include Storm Lances in my Nemo 1 list with a pair of Storm Towers, they threat 20" as spark nodes, Mage Hunter Strike Force threat 18", if you can kill a few before Issyria feats then you are in a good spot.
Vlad protects his rockets by having troops between you and them. He also has other guns. You will, for instance, have to deal with a conquest rompa stomping around shooting your stuff and having a 10" Threat range while voltaic snared and up to 15" if not. My point isn't that nemo 1 loses every game, it's that acting as if decel is a cure all for guns doesn't reflect reality. Nemo 1 has a lot of focus for a bunch of inefficient abilities. If he had average to good spells with 11 focus then he would feel strong but right now you can barely do any of your big tricks without being drained dry and it's not like his tricks are exceptionally powerful. If you hit the right models with Chain Lightning you can get to the rockets, or if they are too far back just sandpaper off the front and ignore them for a turn. I would love them to bring a Conquest.
Anyway It's obvious we won't agree (as we never agree on anything it seems), so happy to leave it there
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 11, 2017 17:38:44 GMT
First, I'm not sold you drop Nemo1 into Khador. Khador kind of our Female Dog anyway, Haley3, Haley2, etc all answer Khador better than Nemo1 does. I'm not saying Nemo1 can't play it, but it's just not why you bring him. You also don't play him into Skorne or Minions. The only hard hitting Hordes faction I would play him into is prolly Grymkin.
I find all this discussion about Decels lack of importance odd. If I bring Stormclads, my jacks are ARM21. Legion lists typically only have a single source of Wraithbane. My army-wide buff trumps his single target buff. My jacks are still ARM19 or 21. And, yes, Both Retribution and Legion have Blessed ranged attacks, it's rarely enough to chew through 9 jacks.
As far as troopers? My list had 3 fireflies and a lancer plus two stormclads. That's a lot of eleaps and spark nodes. I wouldn't want to play my Nemo1 list into 40 dudes but play it into a single unit with some solos? Yeah, it's fine. It can totally clear all those guys.
As far as Nemo1 being not great into Storm Division, that's true. But Storm Division is usually not the Swan's mirror drop. I've also played Nemo1 into Caine3 Storm Division, so I didn't have a feat at all. I still won that game but it was grindier and I had to be more careful than I would have liked.
It's good into Cygnar because it's immune to electricity and Nemo has Decel. It's prolly fine into Grave Diggers, it has enough leaps to kill trenchers and if trenchers have to use CRA they get fewer attacks. Dice off 10 is bad news for Trenchers and combining for a sweet straight dice damage roll is pretty bad for them, they just die on the resprisal, I think. Oddly, Cygnar answers Grave diggers better than many other factions. I don't know how Trenchers fight 3 fireflies, it seems really bad for them.
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