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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 11, 2017 18:13:49 GMT
snarlyyow So you say snare target is not a minor speed bump? Doomie3 POD list with MK you "edit: lets say you can actually"snare him he still has a 9 inch melee threat range with a 17 inch spray range. POW 16s boosted damage still hurts despite decel. You take him out of the equation lets say, you still have brawler or earthborne (sometimes both) as well as a few lights (slag, bouncer, axer) who can put a hurting on you. You out threat them by 1 inch (unless list includes laynssa) but they're tough enough to tank most of your tools unless you focus fire. Even then advantage is still in favor of Doomy. Same can be said with Ragnor's POD were Basher spam will certainly become a thing. You say it counters Ret, Issy double MSHF/3 arc nodes/Hyperion will certainly counter your list in SR17. The combo of blessed shots/jack hunter, blinding light, arcane vortex, and 17 inch threat Hyperion (even while snared) will be a tough one for you. Simply put, you snare him he blinds Dynamo and the fireflies (or nemo and your really screwed). She can cast his spell 4 times if need be, you cast it once. Skorne & Cryx in general just puts a damper on you. I mean I can keep listing lists that are active in the meta that can out punch you, out shoot you, or out play you in scenario (and sometimes do both 2 of the 3). Which comes back to the same thing I said prior, Nemo is just not effective enough and that he has too many hard counters. Like I also said before change voltiac snare to how I have it listed above and change his feat to how I have it listed above. Then you can begin to start countering some of those battlegroup heavy lists I mentioned above.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Dec 11, 2017 18:27:09 GMT
Voltaic snare doesn't work on the mountain king Bad caster is bad
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 11, 2017 18:31:35 GMT
Voltaic snare doesn't work on the mountain king Bad caster is bad See even I was already thinking of terms of it working on hordes and it still is a minor speedbump!
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 11, 2017 19:26:52 GMT
Yes, yes, I agree Voltaic Snare should be changed to work on warbeasts. It might be acceptable that it doesn't if Nemo1's feat also did something to beasts but having both big tools available to him not really hurting beasts is pretty sad.
But Nemo1 is far from bad.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Dec 11, 2017 20:14:04 GMT
Yes, yes, I agree Voltaic Snare should be changed to work on warbeasts. It might be acceptable that it doesn't if Nemo1's feat also did something to beasts but having both big tools available to him not really hurting beasts is pretty sad. But Nemo1 is far from bad. I loved nemo 1 in mk 2. I played him a few times in mk 3. He's pretty bad. Mediocre spells, terrible feat. Worst field marshal in the game?
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Dec 11, 2017 21:15:54 GMT
The level of hate for Nemo1 in this thread is really surprising. If you don't like him, don't play him. Meanwhile, I hope that snarlyyow continues to play him and trash the competition. I loves me some Nemo1.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 11, 2017 21:17:40 GMT
But Nemo1 is far from bad. This is what we established so far in Nemo1's current form. Pros - Can get up to 11 focus to take advantage of spell list (and field marshal meaning warjacks can have up to 4 focus)
- Feat can slow down Warjack heavy armies
- Decent threat extension spell/STR buff spell towards warjacks
Cons - Signature Spell does not work on hordes(and be casted 1 time)
- Slambot tactic not something only Nemo1 can do
- Feat main use is on Warjack heavy armies with no access to empower
- Electrically Immune models means his feat is useless
- In general, has trouble with speedy lists
- No personal board presence
Again Nemo1 is in the lower echelon of Cygnar casters with 2nd tier casters like Caine1, Stryker3, Kraye, Darius, and Siege2 all being stronger and better at handling the current meta.
gmonkey
Its not about Nemo1 hate. It was a discussion that I felt that didn't need to be in Nemo2 thread and we decided to talk about it in its own thread.
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 11, 2017 21:33:55 GMT
The level of hate for Nemo1 in this thread is really surprising. If you don't like him, don't play him. Meanwhile, I hope that snarlyyow continues to play him and trash the competition. I loves me some Nemo1. It's pretty crazy and it's pretty strange at the level of animosity. Voltaic Snare is a great spell and the way people brush it off is pretty disturbing. It's why I started this thread because, for whatever reason, people seem to gate nemo1 for almost no reason. Like, someone says other casters can do the slambot thing. You know, not really. Slambot with a feat that disrupts stuff and 11 focus is unique to Nemo1. Seeing people brush off decel like it doesn't matter is pretty strange too. Like, ARM21/ARM23 jacks are pretty great and folks in this thread are like "that's rubbish". It's crazy.
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Post by sludgeogre on Dec 11, 2017 21:36:33 GMT
I've read this thread twice to try to find some reason to run Nemo1 instead of Stryker1 or Kraye and I'm not finding any reason to. I struggle with ever seeing a situation where the feat feels worth it. A bunch of Pow14's just doesn't thrill me. Stryker1 can apply disruption pretty easily between his gun and running a Storm Strider. In general, I have a lot more issues with beast bricks than I do with jack lists, anyway. Storm Strider is just such a powerhouse with Stryker1, I'm not convinced there's any advantage with Nemo1. Kraye has much more game into beast bricks since he gives you free charges into those beasts and after you kill them you can back up 5 inches.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Dec 11, 2017 21:38:36 GMT
The level of hate for Nemo1 in this thread is really surprising. If you don't like him, don't play him. Meanwhile, I hope that snarlyyow continues to play him and trash the competition. I loves me some Nemo1. It's pretty crazy and it's pretty strange at the level of animosity. Voltaic Snare is a great spell and the way people brush it off is pretty disturbing. It's why I started this thread because, for whatever reason, people seem to gate nemo1 for almost no reason. Like, someone says other casters can do the slambot thing. You know, not really. Slambot with a feat that disrupts stuff and 11 focus is unique to Nemo1. Seeing people brush off decel like it doesn't matter is pretty strange too. Like, ARM21/ARM23 jacks are pretty great and folks in this thread are like "that's rubbish". It's crazy. "I played nemo 1 and my suspicions were confirmed when I found him not very good for these reasons" "people hate nemo 1 for no reason!"
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Post by oncouch1 on Dec 12, 2017 4:08:53 GMT
But Nemo1 is far from bad. He is equally as far from good. Before you launch into your "you haven't even played him" or "you dislike him for no reason" spiels I have played him and the below will be my reasons for not liking him. He is not a broad enough caster to be the main list, and as a secondary he does not answer problems inherent to the main list with a high enough efficiency or efficacy. What are you using as a main list? I am currently on H3 or H2. When making my pairs I tend to focus on playing a generalist and picking a secondary that shores up any weaknesses. You can pan for some interesting gold there as some match ups can be broken with very strange answers. For example my current two list pair has Haley 1 in it (yes i know about the nerf), and my mk2 pair for h2 was stryker 3 (i posted my list in the old forums and got talked down to a lot, didn't stop me from never losing a single game with him). In both cases the off list has remained unbeaten and at times have looked dominating. That doesn't make them a good list. That makes them a tool for the specific problem, don't reach. I get it, you are super comfortable playing nemo1. That comfort allows you to do better with him than his base abilities allow. I had a similar experience. In mk2 one of my friends challenged me to win one of our events (24-30 person) with a lylyth 1/rhyas1 pair for them to make me a "biggest dick in warmachine" plaque. I rattled off 17 straight wins with lylyth 1. Is lylyth 1 good? No, not really. The match ups that you mentioned Nemo 1 dominating are pretty much gone from the meta. The jack spam (caine3, Kara, haley2, convergence initiative, vyros) and colossals are gone, SR17 did that. Playing a list to answer those is not going to do you many favors. His kit leaves much to be desired. Deceleration is mediocre. Relying on your stats to see you through gunfire just leaves you vulnerable to variance something I do my best not to rely on. Chain lightning, meh. lightning shroud, generic plus 2 damage buff. Fine but far from exciting. Locomotion, decent movement buff nothing to write home about. voltaic snare, meh, your colossal cannot charge not a big deal. There is nothing he does in any direction that makes him exceptional. He buffs everything to a mediocre degree. That doesnt some how make him exceptional. It just makes him mediocre at everything.
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Post by Aegis on Dec 14, 2017 23:25:30 GMT
I'm also in the middle ground on this.
I enjoy Nemo1 and I think it is undervalued, but at the same time I would hardly rate it on the top 7 or 8, and I say it while having played him and Darius for most of MK3.
Part of that is due to Cygnar having a lot of very good casters to begin with, but on the other side it's also true that those good casters are there for a reason (mainly, normal models being designed to work well only with some sort of buff).
His main weaknesses are the heavy focus on BG in a meta that doesn't reward full BG that much anymore, and the heavily skewed flavour against Warmachine.
I could agree that he is probably top 8 against Warmachine, but if we take into account also Hordes, I think that there are casters with a lot less bad matchups than him.
That said, I still enjoy the hell out of Nemo1 and I think that, played in the right way, he could be a great dark horse drop in a tournament (becouse he is not a top caster, but he is a lot closer than most people think, and for sure noone prepares for the Nemo1 matchup).
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