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Post by greenjello on Dec 7, 2017 15:39:00 GMT
Voltaic snare doesn't shut down colossals, it stops them charging. They can still shoot and walk with no problem. Looks like I've been doing that wrong, just another thing that's changed in the transition. No wonder it's no longer 3 focus. So there's another way he's a bit more vulnerable in mkIII.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 7, 2017 15:57:09 GMT
Voltaic snare doesn't shut down colossals, it stops them charging. They can still shoot and walk with no problem. Stopping them from charging can be a pretty big deal, it allows you to set up your heavies ready to take it down next turn, without the risk of the colossal getting into melee with them.
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 7, 2017 19:23:20 GMT
Nemo 1 seems like a noob stomper. He takes a bunch of Cygnar heavies and buffs them slightly in a few directions. He has no real feat in most matchups (and is at best a mediocre time walk). But he doesn't do that much. He has a lot of focus but almost all of his abilities are inefficient. Allocating 4 is alright, but its not like nemo 3, you need to actually allocate more to get use. Locomotion is pretty much the most inefficient movement spell in the game. Couple this with cygnar heavies who are by and large, average and I don't see a great caster forming outside of jank. Great jack Casters are able to efficiently run multiple jacks and generally push things beyond average. Kraye is a great jack caster because he buffs movement to a huge degree, accuracy to a huge degree but also brings things that the jacks couldn't otherwise do such as abuse pathfinder, repo and admo. Kraye has his problems but he is a good jack caster. Nemo 1 is an inefficient buff machine with no tempo and mediocre control. Replace voltaic snare with magnetic hold and locomotion with an efficient spell like road to war and we are beginning to see something happen. "Nemo1 has no real feat..." -Nemo1's feat is absolutely devestating in the right matchups. I agree, sometimes it's a 3/10 but other times it's a 10/10. I've played him into Sloan and Caine3 (which were the typical mirror drops) and it wasn't even a fight. I've never seen anyone look more forlorn than a sad, sad Caine3 player at a big tourny who totally forgot what Nemo1's feat was. " Couple this with cygnar heavies who are by and large, average and I don't see a great caster forming outside of jank." -When you have Decel and all your jacks are ARM20+ to shooting it's not nothing. "Locomotion is pretty much the most inefficient movement spell in the game. " -It's a fine spell when you have 12 focus every turn. Sending a PS21 Stormclad with four focus 13" isn't nothing. "Great jack Casters are able to efficiently run multiple jacks and generally push things beyond average. Kraye is a great jack caster because he buffs movement to a huge degree, accuracy to a huge degree but also brings things that the jacks couldn't otherwise do such as abuse pathfinder, repo and admo." -I need to play Kraye, which I admit I have not done. "Nemo 1 is an inefficient buff machine with no tempo and mediocre control." -Inefficient buff machine? Have you played him at all? "Voltaic snare doesn't shut down colossals, it stops them charging. They can still shoot and walk with no problem." -When your forty point colossal can't alpha, has to be alpha'd, and is shooting at ARM21+ jacks it's basically 40 points of dead weight in your list. greenjello said: "Looks like I've been doing that wrong, just another thing that's changed in the transition. No wonder it's no longer 3 focus. So there's another way he's a bit more vulnerable in mkIII." -It's a cost 2, 4 AOE, that doesn't need to damage to do it's thing. It only affects warjacks, which is sad. But it allows Nemo to constantly win the alpha fight. I think we're missing a couple things here: -You get to take Dynamo and give him four focus every turn. -He has a strength buff. -You have to know how and when to slam things with Nemo1A couple key games I've had at tournaments: Vs. Caine3, ACE, Hurricane, and five chargers (four?). Go first, walk up just outside of threat range of Chargers. He moves forward but out of my melee ranges. Turn 2, Voltaic Snare Hurricane, Run Fireflies to within 5" of Chargers, Feat doing straight dice damage. In return Caine 3 will not feat, Shuffles around. Turn 3, I make melee attacks into the chargers with my fireflies, they are all engaged and have taken damage. His turn, he cannot move the chargers, which would take freestrikes, to his already heavily damaged chargers. Vs. Lilly3, Archangel, unit of raptors, typhon, etc: Create "Fort Nemo" with 2 jacks behind a forest hiding nemo. Cast decel. Have Dynamo do damage to angel, feat, doing additional damage to Angel. Angel kills dynamo. Centurion kills archangel off. Firefly slams raptors, knocking two down. Cast CHain lightning killing several. Stormclad kills Typhon. Not even a game. Vs Mags double Galleon, Cast decel. Cast Voltaic Snare on one Galleon largely ignoring it, get Jakes' Stormclad to alpha the second since it cannot be pushed. His turn, Galleon takes shots at my ARM21 jacks doing little. Cast Voltaic Snare on Galleon again, finish off Galleon 2 with Dynamo at range. Turn four, kill second Galleon, coast to scenario victory. Vs Bart, Galleon, a bevy of solos, two units of eliminators. Cast Voltaic Snare on Galleon, set up Alpha with Jakes1 Stormclad. Eliminators on flag on Bart's feat turn, run my Firefly to flag, it gets knockdown due to Bart's feat, shoot own Firefly in back killing eliminators, score a point. Alpha Galleon, feat on it boosting damage. Stormclad and Centurion with Lightning shroud kill all the solos with melee attacks and eleaps (I actually used my Centurions PS16 shield to hit my own Stormclad to generate eleaps. HA!) Win on scenario. On and on and on it goes. Yes, you have to play him into the correct matchups. You have to know where to play him. Absolutely. But I've sung his praises time and again. He has my best win record in MKiii, better than pre-nerf Haley2. I've played him at Lock and Load (in Masters and the team event. He let me down in neither). I've played him at Mox's team event. I've played him at the I5 team championship where he largely didn't let me down (though my dice did!). I've played him a lot. And maybe if you're still confused about matchups and pairings he's less than desireable because if you do not know when to drop him he can hurt you. He has almost zero inconsequential spells. His feat can be catastrophic against certain opponents and Decel takes you really, really far. His combination of defense and offense is not something you usually see. His ability to consistently alpha is very good, and a PS21 Stormclad with 4 Focus is nothing to be scoffed at, especially when it has a 13" threat range.
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Post by greenjello on Dec 7, 2017 19:40:25 GMT
-It's a fine spell when you have 12 focus every turn. Sending a PS21 Stormclad with four focus 13" isn't nothing. How are you getting to 12 focus? He's Focus 7, 3 arcane spell tokens, 1 focus from the squire is 11.
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xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Dec 7, 2017 20:06:58 GMT
Likely counts Arlan in the mix.
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 7, 2017 20:27:25 GMT
Likely counts Arlan in the mix. I do. Arlan can allocate a fourth focus, the fourth focus does not need to come from Nemo. Essentially, by Arlan giving a focus you get two focus for the price of one!
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 7, 2017 20:34:18 GMT
snarlyyow it sounds like to me you are largely playing him in specific matchups during a certain period of time were mass warjacks lists were the norm. But yet as you said so yourself, you haven't played him lately since hordes seem to be a lot more common now then back in SR16. So while I am not trying to discount your points they do seem to be very dated.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 7, 2017 20:48:32 GMT
I side with snarlyyow as he has actually played some games with Nemo 1
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Post by greenjello on Dec 7, 2017 20:53:03 GMT
Likely counts Arlan in the mix. I do. Arlan can allocate a fourth focus, the fourth focus does not need to come from Nemo. Essentially, by Arlan giving a focus you get two focus for the price of one! Okay, thanks. I wouldn't necessarily count him any more than I would count the "free" focus I get per warjack, but that makes sense. Arlan's empower change does make Nemo1 a bit stronger, but he helps the rest of the factions as well.
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 7, 2017 21:11:33 GMT
snarlyyow it sounds like to me you are largely playing him in specific matchups during a certain period of time were mass warjacks lists were the norm. But yet as you said so yourself, you haven't played him lately since hordes seem to be a lot more common now then back in SR16. So while I am not trying to discount your points they do seem to be very dated. I admit that a lot of my experience is in SR2016 but I've played him plenty since then. If anything the new themes are the big question, especially Clockwork Legions because I don't think Nemo1 answers that as well as he answered Destruction Initiative. But I think the whole meta is this way, is Caine3 in heavy metal still viable? Surely if Caine is Nemo1 is doubly so. Nemo1 has a fantastic army wide buff, Caine does not have a unit buff at all. Nemo1 wants to play a melee centric list, allowing him to commit to zones, Caine and Sloan do not want that. So while I respect the idea that Nemo1 may have lost steam in SR2017 I think if that's true it's certainly less true for him that two of our widely claimed "power casters".
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xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Dec 7, 2017 21:21:39 GMT
I do. Arlan can allocate a fourth focus, the fourth focus does not need to come from Nemo. Essentially, by Arlan giving a focus you get two focus for the price of one! Okay, thanks. I wouldn't necessarily count him any more than I would count the "free" focus I get per warjack, but that makes sense. Arlan's empower change does make Nemo1 a bit stronger, but he helps the rest of the factions as well. The best part about Arlan with Nemo1 is he is really giving Nemo 2 focus. One to a jack and one power token. :-D
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 7, 2017 21:34:42 GMT
snarlyyow it sounds like to me you are largely playing him in specific matchups during a certain period of time were mass warjacks lists were the norm. But yet as you said so yourself, you haven't played him lately since hordes seem to be a lot more common now then back in SR16. So while I am not trying to discount your points they do seem to be very dated. I admit that a lot of my experience is in SR2016 but I've played him plenty since then. If anything the new themes are the big question, especially Clockwork Legions because I don't think Nemo1 answers that as well as he answered Destruction Initiative. But I think the whole meta is this way, is Caine3 in heavy metal still viable? Surely if Caine is Nemo1 is doubly so. Nemo1 has a fantastic army wide buff, Caine does not have a unit buff at all. Nemo1 wants to play a melee centric list, allowing him to commit to zones, Caine and Sloan do not want that. So while I respect the idea that Nemo1 may have lost steam in SR2017 I think if that's true it's certainly less true for him that two of our widely claimed "power casters". Kara Sloan is seen less not due to SR17 but due to the increase of anti-gun line lists. Caine3 lists changed, how or what has this change has yielded is something I am not sure of. If you try to perform these same changes with Nemo1 I don't think you will get as good as result as you did in SR16(and SR16 meta). You say bring him in Storm Division and my assumption it will include lances then my question is why not bring Stryker3. You say a mix up of blades and lances then why not bring Siege2. Try to take advantage of the BE with Fireflies and blades to taste, why not bring Nemo3. In short, I am sure you can come up with a list that may work but one of the other casters will do it better and have a personal threat presence on top of that. And if SR18 and so on continue to how SR17 is designed, Nemo will fall further and further behind which based upon some of the posts/musings on facebook it seems SR17 trend/style will continue. This is why I say he needs a re-work.
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 7, 2017 21:48:49 GMT
I admit that a lot of my experience is in SR2016 but I've played him plenty since then. If anything the new themes are the big question, especially Clockwork Legions because I don't think Nemo1 answers that as well as he answered Destruction Initiative. But I think the whole meta is this way, is Caine3 in heavy metal still viable? Surely if Caine is Nemo1 is doubly so. Nemo1 has a fantastic army wide buff, Caine does not have a unit buff at all. Nemo1 wants to play a melee centric list, allowing him to commit to zones, Caine and Sloan do not want that. So while I respect the idea that Nemo1 may have lost steam in SR2017 I think if that's true it's certainly less true for him that two of our widely claimed "power casters". Kara Sloan is seen less not due to SR17 but due to the increase of anti-gun line lists. Caine3 lists changed, how or what has this change has yielded is something I am not sure of. If you try to perform these same changes with Nemo1 I don't think you will get as good as result as you did in SR16(and SR16 meta). You say bring him in Storm Division and my assumption it will include lances then my question is why not bring Stryker3. You say a mix up of blades and lances then why not bring Siege2. Try to take advantage of the BE with Fireflies and blades to taste, why not bring Nemo3. In short, I am sure you can come up with a list that may work but one of the other casters will do it better and have a personal threat presence on top of that. And if SR18 and so on continue to how SR17 is designed, Nemo will fall further and further behind which based upon some of the posts/musings on facebook it seems SR17 trend/style will continue. This is why I say he needs a re-work. My idea about Storm Division was largely off-the-cuff and said without thinking, it was like "maybe there's some dojo I hadn't done yet." But, look, I've played a lot of Nemo1 and my previous list was Nemo1 -Squire -Firefly X2 -Dynamo -Stormclad -Centurion -Lancer Jr -Firefly Jakes -Reliant Arlan But if I wanted to make an SR2017 list this is what I would do: Nemo -Squire -Dynamo -Firefly -Lancer -Hammersmith -Stormclad Jr. -Firefly Jakes -Stormclad Trencher Combat Engineers Field Mechanics (MIN) So I'm trading a Firefly and a Centurion for two units (one of which has guns because lawlz!) and a Hammersmith. That doesn't seem like a massive hit to me. A Hammersmith with 7 PS19 attacks and an 11" threat seems pretty nutty. Lord knows the Centurion was the most unnecessary part of my previous list.
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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 7, 2017 23:21:43 GMT
My idea about Storm Division was largely off-the-cuff and said without thinking, it was like "maybe there's some dojo I hadn't done yet." But, look, I've played a lot of Nemo1 and my previous list was Nemo1 -Squire -Firefly X2 -Dynamo -Stormclad -Centurion -Lancer Jr -Firefly Jakes -Reliant Arlan But if I wanted to make an SR2017 list this is what I would do: Nemo -Squire -Dynamo -Firefly -Lancer -Hammersmith -Stormclad Jr. -Firefly Jakes -Stormclad Trencher Combat Engineers Field Mechanics (MIN) So I'm trading a Firefly and a Centurion for two units (one of which has guns because lawlz!) and a Hammersmith. That doesn't seem like a massive hit to me. A Hammersmith with 7 PS19 attacks and an 11" threat seems pretty nutty. Lord knows the Centurion was the most unnecessary part of my previous list. Personally, I would just change your list to a Nemo3 list and have my other list cover this lists' weakness. I would go Storm Division, go for 2 min units of Storm Lances, Storm Strider, Jr, 2 Fireflies, Dyanmo, Thunderhead, Arlan, and Reinholdt. I feel your list would have trouble against super speedy infantry lists were Nemo3 can simply do a fort nemo (using your phrase) and use Thead's pulse, Storm Strider's stomp/2shots, or have enough leaping action through Nemo's gun/chain lightning. Lets also not discount Magnetic Hold and his feat.
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 8, 2017 0:31:00 GMT
Said like someone who has not played Nemo1 . I mean, Nemo1 and Nemo3 share the same name but they are not the same. Nemo1 offers more shooting resilience and more threat extension. Nemo3 is a shooting list sans any shooting buffs. Nemo1 is a melee list almost entirely, Nemo3 is a ranged list. Let me explain the difference. Let's say you're facing Haley2, Stormwall and Thorn. This is unlikely as Haley2 is rarely a Cygnar drop. Still, it's a strong list and will properly explore the purpose of why Nemo1 is better. Nemo3 wants his feat to kill to the Arcane Shielded Stormwall. Problem? Stormwall is immune to electricity and is thus totally immune to Nemo3's biggest threat, his feat. Haley's Stormwall outthreats everything on Nemo3's side of the table. Sure, Magnetic Hold is fine against Thorn, but the Stormwall's analog guns are decent into Nemo3's ARM16 and ARM18 jacks. Nemo1 is going to disrupt Thorn with his feat and then Voltaic Snare him and then shoot him to death with Dynamo. The Stormwall's guns are all dice -6 or more to Nemo1's jacks. Nemo1's PS21 Stormclad will out threat Haley's Stormwall turn after turn, Nemo3 cannot do that, he's always out threatened by Haley2's heavies. Nemo3 into anything with stealth, like Kaelyssa, just gets hosed. Nemo1 doesn't care. He casts Decel and waits it out. In short, this game rewards melee and punishes ranged attacks, almost to a fault. There's more shield guards, more self sac, more concealment than there is anti-melee tech (which I think is pretty much limited to Defensive Line). My Nemo1 list can shoot, it has (had?) 3 Fireflies and Dynamo and 2 Stormclads. Yes, Stormclads have guns. Also, what people do not expect is I use my fireflies, if they're not shooting, as slambots. Slamming jacks and disrupting them is really good, especially when it's repeatable. Last, Nemo3 either can't play into the mirror (Stormclad, Stormwall, out threatened at range by Sloan or Caine3) while Nemo1 loves to see that matchup. Part of my Haley2 problem was playing into the mirror, Sloan and Caine3 being prime candidates to kill Haley or her biggest tools (Stormwall, Thorn). Nemo1 shuts that all down. He doesn't need Nemo3's feat to kill Cygnar infantry (Afterall, Trenchers die to POW12 eleaps whether or not the damage is boosted) and he out threats every ranged and melee list in Cygnar's arsenal. Got Stryker1? I have Voltaic Snare, who cares? Got Sloan or Caine3? All your jacks are disrupted and your hunters are dice -6. Got Lances? I'm immune to their shooting and all my jacks have reach, preventing their repositions. Got Siege1? I have Decel, have a nice day. Nemo1 and Nemo3 are not the same caster. Not at all. Their playstyles are totally different. What they play into is totally different.
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