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Post by far2casual on Oct 11, 2017 9:18:00 GMT
So we've had a successful Battle Engine CID who made many models that were only barely played, mainstays in their faction. This was both good for the players, as Battle Engines are mostly beautiful center pieces and very unique in terms of gameplay, and for PP who probably saw a sales increase on those expensive models.
The idea behind this post is to simply ask the question : wouldn't it be a good idea to the same for the Colossals and Gargantuans now ? I have the feeling that even if the Colossals aren't in a similar bad shape as BE were before the CID, the situation isn't that great for them either. There are some factions who use their colossals (thinking mainly about Cygnar, Ret and Trolls here), but even there the WTC stats show that those pieces aren't really dominating that much. I saw in some cases popular Colossals spots with very obvious synergies (like Issyria+Hyperion) being replaced by multiples heavies, often for the best.
I personnally play Cryx and Skorne. In Cryx, the Kraken is a decent piece in the Cryx arsenal, but is very hard to use as it is fragile and has a very low damage output for 36 points. I've got some decent success from it with Skarre1 who fixes everything for him and allows him to play on multiple turns to get its points back, but that's it. I tested it with Asphyxious3, where it should be a good match, and it wasn't great. As for the Sepulcher ... well it's not very powerful we'll say. In Skorne, I mean look at the Animantarax now. You can almost get 2 Animantarax and a min unit of handlers for the price of either of our Gargossals. Two Animantaraxes has better damage output (up to 11 initials each !), better resilience (70 boxes with ARM20), better mobility (SPD8 & tramples), better board presence, do not require a control range or fury management, ...
In some factions, I've never faced a pairing containing any, like Khador, Protectorate, Mercs. There seems to be many pieces that absolutely never see play, like the Storm Raptor or the Archangel. That's really shame considering how beautiful and original those pieces are.
What are your thoughts on this ?
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Oct 11, 2017 10:32:48 GMT
Seems like a great idea to me. Wouldn't surprise me if it is already on PP's internal schedule of potential areas to look at.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Oct 11, 2017 10:38:32 GMT
I think Colossals and Gargantuans are mostly in a good place. Some might get tweaked during other CID like the Glacier king did recently in troll CID but so many of them are strong that a whole dedicated CID would be pointless imho.
Cygnar: Hurricane and Stormwall both see lots of play. Menoth: Judicator might need a look at. Got taken lots in mk2. Revelator seems to be highly anticipated. I expect to see it a lot. Khador: Conquest see's play. Victor doesn't really. Cryx: No one is playing them due to the rest of the faction and the themes being too powerful. People where playing krakens pre Ghost fleet so they are fine. Ret: Both seeing play and are good. CoC: Axiom see's play. Conflux needs help maybe. Trolls: MK is amazing. GK just got buffed, SK will maybe see play now cheaper. Circle: WoldWrath see's play even if it's just with one caster. Definitely strong. Storm Raptor is really close to being very good. Seen it on table a lot, better than people thing. Maybe needs Mat6 Legion: See both get played. Blightbringer will probably be amazing with Blighted Ogre theme. Skorne: Seeing Both get played now
So yeah overall maybe Storm Raptor needs a slight buff and so does Victor, Sepulcha, Judicator and Conflux. It's not a lot really considering how many exist?
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Post by tiberius on Oct 11, 2017 10:48:06 GMT
The sepulcher was recently buffed with the Cryx CID allowing it to use friendly undead corpses which fixed its problems in my opinion. I think it is already a strong gun boat, basically two leviathans taped together.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 11, 2017 10:52:51 GMT
The Dracodile looks absolutely brutal at the moment, free charges against large and huge bases, Assault spray with a -4 def swing, 4 initial attacks and a useful animus
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Post by NoSuchMethod on Oct 11, 2017 11:04:26 GMT
I think they probably will do one, but I don't think it needs to be way up the priority list. The gargossals are mostly in a pretty good place - that class of models was one of the big winners coming in to Mk3, with almost all of them getting a functional points decrease, and a few solid buffs handed out. There are a few weak ones (notably Zapdos and the Archangel) but those could change at any time in their own faction CIDS too.
Bottom line - yes, I'd like to do a gargossal CID, but I think a lot of other areas of the game need it more urgently.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 11, 2017 11:05:58 GMT
The sepulcher was recently buffed with the Cryx CID allowing it to use friendly undead corpses which fixed its problems in my opinion. I think it is already a strong gun boat, basically two leviathans taped together. If that were actually the case, I would play it, but the guns you actually want to be using (the Leviathan ones) are only RNG 10, which puts it in charge range of any heavy worth its salt. The Kraken having a better range and at least the potential for a higher POW makes it the better choice in most cases. It also doesn't see play in Infernal Machines because there you get free stuff to take Thralls and 36 points of Colossal take too much out of that, besides you get almost the same functionality with Necrosurgeons. Also, with MAT 6 and only P+S 19, neither can kill a heavy (the ones it can reliably hit take 30 damage at ARM 20 and don't die, the ones with DEF 12+ need boosts to hit) so they need a lot of support to actually be useful, in many cases more infantry or 3 heavies is better.
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Post by shortsleeve on Oct 11, 2017 11:26:11 GMT
victor need help for sure, he lose 2 inch on is small gun and now hes more expensive than conquest, and he rely om luck to hit with his amazing rat 0. but iam sure some other need help i only play again mountain king and some time a ret one , nothing more
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Post by jisidro on Oct 11, 2017 11:43:22 GMT
WTC had these stats:
Circle 12 (1 WolWrath in the lists of 5-1 players or better and 1 Storm Raptor) CoC 15 Cryx 6 ( All Kraken) Cygnar 68 Khador 8 (0 Victors) Legion 4 Mercenaries 1 Retribution 28 Skorne 6 Trollbloods 8
Even accounting for faction presence...
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 11, 2017 12:33:16 GMT
I really think the Hordes gargs that aren't up to par could really be helped by simple animus changes. I know that both Legion models have the most useless animi. Storm raptor's is too short a range for it to use. Counterblast (mammoth) is probably the most generic animus in the game.
The ones that see play have great animi to go along with their capable stats and mechanics. So if we could at least get that minor tweak I think they could be just as good and see table time.
Legion's are a joke - Archangel sets models within 2" on fire. (when cast. not a persisting ability.) - Blightbringer gets to make a pow 12 spray if it gets damaged in melee.
Who wants to invest 37 or 38 points and that be the "defensive" tech the model spends resources to get?
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Post by tiberius on Oct 11, 2017 12:43:32 GMT
The sepulcher was recently buffed with the Cryx CID allowing it to use friendly undead corpses which fixed its problems in my opinion. I think it is already a strong gun boat, basically two leviathans taped together. If that were actually the case, I would play it, but the guns you actually want to be using (the Leviathan ones) are only RNG 10, which puts it in charge range of any heavy worth its salt. The Kraken having a better range and at least the potential for a higher POW makes it the better choice in most cases. It also doesn't see play in Infernal Machines because there you get free stuff to take Thralls and 36 points of Colossal take too much out of that, besides you get almost the same functionality with Necrosurgeons. Also, with MAT 6 and only P+S 19, neither can kill a heavy (the ones it can reliably hit take 30 damage at ARM 20 and don't die, the ones with DEF 12+ need boosts to hit) so they need a lot of support to actually be useful, in many cases more infantry or 3 heavies is better. Good points and all true, especially about the range. Though in my meta, I do go up against a lot of jacks with shields so the POW 19 chain weapons does come up a lot and I have not had much problems keeping my opponent away from the colossal with the swarm of cheap dudes in between. Typically only one can make it in, and I can repair most of the damage with a pair of necrotechs. Not ideal in a lot of popular matchups, but pretty good against my normal opponents.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Oct 11, 2017 12:43:45 GMT
In Skorne, I mean look at the Animantarax now. You can almost get 2 Animantarax and a min unit of handlers for the price of either of our Gargossals. Two Animantaraxes has better damage output (up to 11 initials each !), better resilience (70 boxes with ARM20), better mobility (SPD8 & tramples), better board presence, do not require a control range or fury management, ... As a side note, I wanted to say, that most things look bleak compared to the Animantarax. I feel PP overcompensated by giving everything to this model with a very moderate price point. Imagine a warjack/warbeast with such speed, resilience, damage output, shooting ability and independence from a warcaster - how much would it cost ?
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 11, 2017 13:40:15 GMT
Sure it would be neat, but there are a ton of models that need it more.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 11, 2017 13:44:35 GMT
In Skorne, I mean look at the Animantarax now. You can almost get 2 Animantarax and a min unit of handlers for the price of either of our Gargossals. Two Animantaraxes has better damage output (up to 11 initials each !), better resilience (70 boxes with ARM20), better mobility (SPD8 & tramples), better board presence, do not require a control range or fury management, ... As a side note, I wanted to say, that most things look bleak compared to the Animantarax. I feel PP overcompensated by giving everything to this model with a very moderate price point. Imagine a warjack/warbeast with such speed, resilience, damage output, shooting ability and independence from a warcaster - how much would it cost ? Agreed, the Siege Animantarax is a phenomenal piece now, I would advise against using it as a bench mark for suitable power levels
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 11, 2017 15:09:40 GMT
As a side note, I wanted to say, that most things look bleak compared to the Animantarax. I feel PP overcompensated by giving everything to this model with a very moderate price point. Imagine a warjack/warbeast with such speed, resilience, damage output, shooting ability and independence from a warcaster - how much would it cost ? Agreed, the Siege Animantarax is a phenomenal piece now, I would advise against using it as a bench mark for suitable power levels Gotta agree here. Another product of people not testing it enough in CiD or the people that did test it saying it "needed more". Its a ridiculously powerful battle engine. I think Gargossals are mostly fine. Particularly colossal: Cygnar uses both of theirs and the hurricane is just silly goog Ret uses theirs and both are silly good I feel like the cryx ones are a bit under appreciated they are pretty solid. Convergence has the axiom which whomps heavies and the Conflux who mulches high def infantry and has good support weapons with the homing spikes. I never see khador colossal but to me the victor needs help. The protectorate ones are pretty solid. I think the Judicator needs to have better flamethrowers (spray 10?) and it should have pow 10 blasts on its rocket pods. High explosive would be nice since they are ginormous rocket racks...The relevator seems really good though. Gargantuans are a mixed bag. Trolls are all in a good spot now after CiD Skorne are both in a good spot Minions dracodile looks bananas good. But it is pretty squishy. and without barny 1 and swamp pit it will get shot up a lot. It should probably go up in cost a bit as it has a really good spray attack and 4 initials with free charges but we shall see. Honestly it seems fun! Legion gargs are hard, I have seen the archangel used pretty well and I think the Blight bringer will come into his own with the new ogrun theme. I am unsure on these ones. Circle Gargs are both OK. the wrath is hard to justify outside of the baldurs as it really wants and arm buff to be an anchor. I thnk it is a little overpriced and it really should have magical weapons....I really only use them with the baldurs. The storm raptor really needs a mat buff and his animus should be 10" range instead of cmd. CMD is just very limiting. he also should probably have deceptively mobile like the archangle so it can play cagey. Overall the majority of the "problem gargs" are in hordes. Warmachine really only has 2 that I think need some work.
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