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Post by shortsleeve on Oct 12, 2017 6:43:57 GMT
the problem is not only his main gun i can work with it, but his shoulder gun have only 10 inch range and at rat 4 infantry are hard to hit ok you get boost vs flight but it barely happen , give him rat 5 so it will help again infantry or give him a better range otherwise give him dual attack or something, i complain again the big gun but what bother me its that gun is his trademark and for 38 points he should have more than that
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Post by shortsleeve on Oct 12, 2017 6:49:09 GMT
and conquest is 37 not 36. but still good no problem with him
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 12, 2017 11:02:11 GMT
Its not unreliable, its metaed out because setting things on fire isn't much of a thing because the need to generically thresh infantry is borderline at best right now, and stealth swarm infantry are also generally metaed out. The key is "right now" Khador has 2 casters that let it reach out and bad touch 5" aoe's twice a turn and a 3 point artillerist. The minute the meta shifts and the frankly very versatile options its gun has become relevant again people will be Female Doging about how conquest just isn't as good. I’m sure the victor would be better if it wasn’t Rat 4 as well and if PP would stop giving ever faction pathfinder in some way shape or form to units. Relentless charging sentinels, Ghostly banes, Etc all kind of make things like the crater AOE useless. The font Fire AOE and the flare AOE are great it’s Rat is just a hinderence. Especially combined with inaccurate. It should ditch innacurate and go to Rat 5. It does not ignore stealth on its own and it only gets 1 shot so I cannot see it being OP
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 12, 2017 11:05:23 GMT
Just get rid of the minimum range on the Victors gun, in a game where scenario is king, having a huge model like that having to sit back to shoot is crap
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 12, 2017 13:02:00 GMT
Can not argue that the Wold CiD will make the Wrath almost irrelevant as 2 heavies will be better in almost every situation. Thinking He really needs some tweak like magic Weapons and Pow + Str 20 on his fists. I think the raptor is one of the worst gargantuans in the game for sure. A big part of why the Wrath seems bad now where earlier in MK3 he was considered better is I honestly feel the game is undergoing horrible power creep thanks to CiD. The Dracodile is a perfect example of this. It is a very good gargantuan and people on there seem to not appreciate it getting four initials and free charges. It’s pretty cheap considering all it does. I don't want to jump to conspiracy~like conclusions. But yes, the things that come out of CID are so clearly better thought out and powerful that it's sickening. Not even including the Grymkin in the debate. The synergy and sheer power of the Trenchers and now Gators is clearly a rank above anything that has ever just hit the shelves. (I can't comment on troll as they just are not in my area meta) The Dracodile is insane. It started out with a clearly un-synergistic ability, man eater. Normally that just would have been it. A model is really powerful but has a glaring useless ability or major weakness. But NO this is develop by popular opinion. Now the thing has 4 initials, 4 fury, Assault, and a Free charge against Large base models. The exact thing it's built for and wants to do. It's fits perfect for a tremendously powerful model. For a bargain garg price. If Legion got a model like that off the shelf it would cost 48 points and not be allowed in any themes. If this is what comes out of CID then every single existing model needs to go through. That's going to be a ton of work. It's also going to take 2 years or more. But they are creating such a blatantly huge gap in power that it's going to make things not worth playing if it's not been in a CID cycle.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 12, 2017 13:15:41 GMT
I don't want to jump to conspiracy~like conclusions. But yes, the things that come out of CID are so clearly better thought out and powerful that it's sickening. Not even including the Grymkin in the debate. The synergy and sheer power of the Trenchers and now Gators is clearly a rank above anything that has ever just hit the shelves. (I can't comment on troll as they just are not in my area meta) The Dracodile is insane. It started out with a clearly un-synergistic ability, man eater. Normally that just would have been it. A model is really powerful but has a glaring useless ability or major weakness. But NO this is develop by popular opinion. Now the thing has 4 initials, 4 fury, Assault, and a Free charge against Large base models. The exact thing it's built for and wants to do. It's fits perfect for a tremendously powerful model. For a bargain garg price. If Legion got a model like that off the shelf it would cost 48 points and not be allowed in any themes. If this is what comes out of CID then every single existing model needs to go through. That's going to be a ton of work. It's also going to take 2 years or more. But they are creating such a blatantly huge gap in power that it's going to make things not worth playing if it's not been in a CID cycle. Actually as long as they don't listen to the people complaining about barny 2 being too easy to kill I think most of the stuff in the minions CiD is ok. Dracodile is IMO where Gargs Need to be. He is on par with the Kings for the most part needs to pay a wrastler tax to get to really good Pow and without Barny 1 gets shot off the table pretty easily. If the Archangel, Thunder Chicken, and Wrath were on the level of the Kings and Big drac I think we would see a lot more gargantuans. I will however jump on the conspiracy bandwagon and say that anyone who looks at the trencher and Dark Host CiD and compares it to the troll and minions CiD you'll see a decent power gap. You'll also notice a lot more fighting from the devs for the Gator and Troll CiD (and more reductions in power) Where the trencher and Darkhost CiD things only ever went tup in power. For goodness sakes, look at kraye...the dude is ridiculous. makes you wonder if that whole favorite faction stuff is actually true... One thing that bothered me most in the troll CiD was how many non troll players got on there and complained about things being too good. Like revised madrack 1. Just seemed like a lot of fighting for trolls to stay in this mediocre spot compared to past CiD's. I mean compare the Madrack 1, and Bradigus changes to Kraye and you just see this big gap in power and flare. Anyway, enough grumbling.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 12, 2017 13:20:42 GMT
Actually as long as they don't listen to the people complaining about barny 2 being too easy to kill I think most of the stuff in the minions CiD is ok. Dracodile is IMO where Gargs Need to be. He is on par with the Kings for the most part needs to pay a wrastler tax to get to really good Pow and without Barny 1 gets shot off the table pretty easily. If the Archangel, Thunder Chicken, and Wrath were on the level of the Kings and Big drac I think we would see a lot more gargantuans. I sort of agree, especially about Barny 2, I think he's in a pretty great spot stat/defenses wise, but I don't have experience in facing or playing any of it. The Dracodile seems really powerful and maybe one of the only sprays in the game that has straight Blind instead of crit? ARM 20 seems like a lot for it, but maybe it's fine on the table. Thing is, many Gargossals don't actually feel like they do the work of 2-3 heavies, more like 1-2, whereas I agree that the Dracodile at least does a lot of work.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 12, 2017 13:30:52 GMT
Actually as long as they don't listen to the people complaining about barny 2 being too easy to kill I think most of the stuff in the minions CiD is ok. Dracodile is IMO where Gargs Need to be. He is on par with the Kings for the most part needs to pay a wrastler tax to get to really good Pow and without Barny 1 gets shot off the table pretty easily. If the Archangel, Thunder Chicken, and Wrath were on the level of the Kings and Big drac I think we would see a lot more gargantuans. I saw someone arguing on the CID forums that Barny should gain Death Powered and Unyielding, to make him arm 25 in melee with Spiny Growth! The Calibre of Cretins that play this game astounds me sometimes, Luckily PP don't seem to be listening to their moronic whinging in this instance.
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Post by jisidro on Oct 12, 2017 13:30:57 GMT
Can not argue that the Wold CiD will make the Wrath almost irrelevant as 2 heavies will be better in almost every situation. Thinking He really needs some tweak like magic Weapons and Pow + Str 20 on his fists. I think the raptor is one of the worst gargantuans in the game for sure. A big part of why the Wrath seems bad now where earlier in MK3 he was considered better is I honestly feel the game is undergoing horrible power creep thanks to CiD. The Dracodile is a perfect example of this. It is a very good gargantuan and people on there seem to not appreciate it getting four initials and free charges. It’s pretty cheap considering all it does. I don't want to jump to conspiracy~like conclusions. But yes, the things that come out of CID are so clearly better thought out and powerful that it's sickening. Not even including the Grymkin in the debate. The synergy and sheer power of the Trenchers and now Gators is clearly a rank above anything that has ever just hit the shelves. (I can't comment on troll as they just are not in my area meta) The Dracodile is insane. It started out with a clearly un-synergistic ability, man eater. Normally that just would have been it. A model is really powerful but has a glaring useless ability or major weakness. But NO this is develop by popular opinion. Now the thing has 4 initials, 4 fury, Assault, and a Free charge against Large base models. The exact thing it's built for and wants to do. It's fits perfect for a tremendously powerful model. For a bargain garg price. If Legion got a model like that off the shelf it would cost 48 points and not be allowed in any themes. If this is what comes out of CID then every single existing model needs to go through. That's going to be a ton of work. It's also going to take 2 years or more. But they are creating such a blatantly huge gap in power that it's going to make things not worth playing if it's not been in a CID cycle.
How can Man-eater be un-synergistic with anything? It's a gator ability and was plopped on the Dracodile because it is a Gator.
Is it probably more useful to charge for free on large and huge (?) models? Probably but the idea that it doesn't actively want to charge warrior models is laughable.
It did not become better designed, it gained power. Gained exactly pseudo-Fury 5 when attacking his prefered targets. Didn't I read in the beggining of the CID that he had lost Fury 5 because they thought it was too much?
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 12, 2017 13:38:44 GMT
Actually as long as they don't listen to the people complaining about barny 2 being too easy to kill I think most of the stuff in the minions CiD is ok. Dracodile is IMO where Gargs Need to be. He is on par with the Kings for the most part needs to pay a wrastler tax to get to really good Pow and without Barny 1 gets shot off the table pretty easily. If the Archangel, Thunder Chicken, and Wrath were on the level of the Kings and Big drac I think we would see a lot more gargantuans. I will however jump on the conspiracy bandwagon and say that anyone who looks at the trencher and Dark Host CiD and compares it to the troll and minions CiD you'll see a decent power gap. You'll also notice a lot more fighting from the devs for the Gator and Troll CiD (and more reductions in power) Where the trencher and Darkhost CiD things only ever went tup in power. For goodness sakes, look at kraye...the dude is ridiculous. makes you wonder if that whole favorite faction stuff is actually true... One thing that bothered me most in the troll CiD was how many non troll players got on there and complained about things being too good. Like revised madrack 1. Just seemed like a lot of fighting for trolls to stay in this mediocre spot compared to past CiD's. I mean compare the Madrack 1, and Bradigus changes to Kraye and you just see this big gap in power and flare. Anyway, enough grumbling. I'm actually terrified of Kraye 2.0 and Trencher spam Haley. Yes the hordes versions of things went through so pretty terrible back and forth. But Same could be said for PoM's new dragoon. PP aren't perfect and I really feel like they are missing a few people to really be in depth experts on certain factions. The changes to bradigus were laughable but the other wolds got pretty good attention. The Ice witches went literally no where. Week 3 we were back to the exact rules as week 1. The Troll chain weapon beast is mediocre on a good day. But I have to say it is Minion Christmas. I love everything about every single change. I can't wait to actually get some game time with them and at lest submit something for feedback. I'm almost certain of which models I want to buy immediately on release, assuming rules stay 90% the same. It's actually really reassuring. I even have plans for minions in my Legion armies. So it's a good thing. But until everyone gets the same, equivalent, treatment. things are out of balance between all the factions.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 12, 2017 13:45:27 GMT
Actually as long as they don't listen to the people complaining about barny 2 being too easy to kill I think most of the stuff in the minions CiD is ok. Dracodile is IMO where Gargs Need to be. He is on par with the Kings for the most part needs to pay a wrastler tax to get to really good Pow and without Barny 1 gets shot off the table pretty easily. If the Archangel, Thunder Chicken, and Wrath were on the level of the Kings and Big drac I think we would see a lot more gargantuans. I saw someone arguing on the CID forums that Barny should gain Death Powered and Unyielding, to make him arm 25 in melee with Spiny Growth! The Calibre of Cretins that play this game astounds me sometimes, Luckily PP don't seem to be listening to their moronic whinging in this instance. It's not just CID. Go to the legion board and look at the half dozen threads proposing to rewrite half the models and themes for the faction. Dude wanted Legionnaires to have Set defense, defensive line, blade shield, wall of steel, unyielding, some other condition armor buff, tough, and iron zeal. In the end they would start at Def 14 Arm 24 and with fyanna and a BB they could be at Def 17 Arm 28. "Balanced" There is a difference between down to earth testing/feedback and just unrestrained "wishlisting". I mean even Genies have rules and limitations on wishes.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 12, 2017 13:47:16 GMT
How can Man-eater be un-synergistic with anything? It's a gator ability and was plopped on the Dracodile because it is a Gator.
Is it probably more useful to charge for free on large and huge (?) models? Probably but the idea that it doesn't actively want to charge warrior models is laughable.
It did not become better designed, it gained power. Gained exactly pseudo-Fury 5 when attacking his prefered targets. Didn't I read in the beggining of the CID that he had lost Fury 5 because they thought it was too much?
I tried to explain the benefit of a free charge against a warrior to trigger the assault spray. It fell on deaf ears. It legitimately lost Fury 5 because it picked up an initial (tail attack).
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Post by greytemplar on Oct 12, 2017 16:54:44 GMT
There is another fix that could be made to Gargantuans.
Gargantuans suffer in part because of their inherent design. They're still never given more Fury than a high end heavy, but they cost 2-3 times as much. So for Hordes, point for point you lose a lot of fury generation. While with Warmachine, you lose only a couple free focus, but you gain a lot of guns.
What if Gargantuans had more Fury? Like 6-8 Fury?
Mountain/Glacier/Sea King: 8 Fury Wold Wrath/Storm Raptor: 6 Fury Mammoth: 7 Fury Hydra: 7 Fury Blight Bringer: 6 Fury Archangel: 7 Fury Dracodile: 8 Fury
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Post by jisidro on Oct 12, 2017 17:18:37 GMT
There is another fix that could be made to Gargantuans. Gargantuans suffer in part because of their inherent design. They're still never given more Fury than a high end heavy, but they cost 2-3 times as much. So for Hordes, point for point you lose a lot of fury generation. While with Warmachine, you lose only a couple free focus, but you gain a lot of guns. What if Gargantuans had more Fury? Like 6-8 Fury? Mountain/Glacier/Sea King: 8 Fury Wold Wrath/Storm Raptor: 6 Fury Mammoth: 7 Fury Hydra: 7 Fury Blight Bringer: 6 Fury Archangel: 7 Fury Dracodile: 8 Fury I don't think this is the solution... this makes them melee monsters and boost machines... But the issue is usually who hits who and if you can die to guns or not.
Powerfull animus that they can use without gimping themselves could be a way to go... you know.. Pod-like effects that don't cost fury and reduce this turn's output and the warlock's camping budget...
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Post by mindwormjim on Oct 12, 2017 17:21:25 GMT
I suspect the answer lies in the realm of Dual Attack. Many gargantuans and colossals are not significantly more damaging in melee than a heavy from the same faction (this is even more obvious in Hordes, where heavy warbeasts tend to do more damage in melee than their warjack counterparts). The result of this is that once the battle lines engage the limited output of a gargantuan or colossal (compared to two or three heavies) becomes more apparent.
I don't think 12 attacks is the answer, and I'm not even sure handing out Dual Attack to everyone would be good. But if I'm feeling uncharitable gargantuans and colossals are just heavies with Slightly higher quality attacks and more boxes. And I feel like giving them more chances to contribute to the game are the way to go.
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