crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389 
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Post by crimsyn on Oct 19, 2017 16:09:30 GMT
Its gonna be changed regardless if the PP pattern holds. He can fire turn 1 into an enemies starting zone with certain casters. Which casters and how? You start 31” apart (no +2” deployment themes in Khador) and with 20” range (no range buffs in Khador) and SPD 4, the best I can do is 28,” either from Vlad1, Feat, walk and shoot, or with Harkevich, run the victors up then cast broadsides. I suppose it is theoretically possible to deviate a blast into the deployment zone, but that requires a fair bit of luck and would be much less reliable than some of the Hunter shenanigans that people had found previously. As for Victor, I just think it would be nice if it had the high explosive rule, or maybe even a variant that does POW 12 damage on the blasts. POW 8 blast damage on one of the biggest guns in the game feels kind of sad. |
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 19, 2017 17:05:16 GMT
I like your idea benjamini. In the case of the Archangel, RoF2 with Reload[1] would be good to me.
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Post by benjamini on Oct 19, 2017 17:25:12 GMT
That's not entirely what I was talking about, but that would be another solution to it as well. I just hate having such a huge swing in potential offensive output when I choose to shoot with my expensive piece.
Though it's something that exists in some places outside of this too that wouldn't that option (*sadly salutes Trollkin Sluggers*). It's probably okay on something like a weapon team mind you.
Mind you having Dual Attack built in as a base Gargossal rule would also probably be enough to make me happy without changing any other rule.
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 19, 2017 17:36:40 GMT
That's not entirely what I was talking about, but that would be another solution to it as well. I just hate having such a huge swing in potential offensive output when I choose to shoot with my expensive piece. Though it's something that exists in some places outside of this too that wouldn't that option (*sadly salutes Trollkin Sluggers*). It's probably okay on something like a weapon team mind you. Mind you having Dual Attack built in as a base Gargossal rule would also probably be enough to make me happy without changing any other rule. Does Dual Attack let you shoot out of combat? If it does than it would be a great boon. I know that Gunfighter only lets you shoot in combat at targets in your melee range. |
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Oct 21, 2017 15:34:23 GMT
I have what appears to be an unpopular opinion:
Firetruck gargossals. They all-or-nothing I'm immune to status effects and have 9 pow 50 attacks and two great guns and a bajillion boxes and you have to remove EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM or I get full power on my turn and special colossal only power attacks and two to four special rules on top of it all*. They usually end up warping the gameplay with that concentration of firepower to a degree that any game sporting one just turns into the colossal game. I don't LIKE the colossal game. I already played that in 40K and left over it. I saw the BE upgrades as a harbinger of doom for this game, pay up for the biggest physical models with a bevvy of special rules or lose to someone who did.
If warmachine dies, I guarantee you huge model power creep will be found at the heart.
* yes I know I just mishmashed pretty much the best thing about any one of them into one description.
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Post by sgregorbmmd on Oct 21, 2017 23:09:04 GMT
I'm less interested in balancing individual models (though they are a bit overcosted for what they do right now) than I am in seeing the baseline rules for a gargossals reworked in a way that makes them more fun to play and less of a limiting factor to list construction for opponents. I'd like to see them more vulnerable to disruptive effects, maybe suffer a movement penalty instead of being knocked down, MAT penalty instead of stationary etc. but no longer get stymied by waist high walls and carefully placed small-based models. Usually, in books, movies, and even in real life, much larger opponents are overcome by first weakening them with clever tactics that negate their overwhelming physical advantages. Whenever I play against a gargossal, I feel like the only answer is to load up two or three heavies and try and take it out in one turn or employ cheap tricks like running a bokur in front of it so that he can only kill it during the gargossal's activation. This requirement severely limits the number of viable builds in either of my factions. Conversely, when I play my Galleon or Earthbreaker, I feel like it has to tiptoe around the battlefield looking out for linear obstacles and dumb stuff like that. I certainly don't feel like I'm controlling some unstoppable force of nature rampaging across the battlefield as I try to carefully carve out travel paths for my godlike death machine so it doesn't trip over a pyg or something. This ex player sums up my frustrations much better than I can. rot-n-roll.blogspot.kr/2015/?m=0 |
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Oct 22, 2017 1:04:53 GMT
Good point and a good blogpost too. I especially agree, now more than ever, the combat is only about arm / pow skew.
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 22, 2017 5:44:08 GMT
I have what appears to be an unpopular opinion: They usually end up warping the gameplay with that concentration of firepower to a degree that any game sporting one just turns into the colossal game. * yes I know I just mishmashed pretty much the best thing about any one of them into one description. I mean this hasn't been true outside the like, first six months when everyone was enamored of em. Cygnar plays theirs because they basically have the best one plus the best armor boost a beast or jack can hope for. Ret occasionally plays one because of focus feeding swarms of jacks, Galleon is played with a few merc casters but beyond that its hardly the colossal game. |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 22, 2017 5:48:54 GMT
I have what appears to be an unpopular opinion: They usually end up warping the gameplay with that concentration of firepower to a degree that any game sporting one just turns into the colossal game. * yes I know I just mishmashed pretty much the best thing about any one of them into one description. I mean this hasn't been true outside the like, first six months when everyone was enamored of em. Cygnar plays theirs because they basically have the best one plus the best armor boost a beast or jack can hope for. Ret occasionally plays one because of focus feeding swarms of jacks, Galleon is played with a few merc casters but beyond that its hardly the colossal game. The complaint isn't that they're super prevalent in the meta, it's that any game with a collossal can easily devolve into a game of 'can I kill the colossal' - if you can do it before it does too much damage, then you win, if not then you lose. Add in the inability to control collossals through normal means (blind, disruption, throws, etc) (though some WEIRD methods, like tiny walls and small trooper models still work) and it can create a very binary game, where you simply have to have enough armor-cracking to take the colossal off the table, and the ability to deliver it effectively. |
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 22, 2017 6:26:34 GMT
Can I kill a colossal is right up there with "can i kill 2 heavies in 1 turn" which is also a thing you have to do in mk3. They don't skew that badly. If you cant take a colossal out you're really going to struggle with the 6 to 10 heavy lists out there.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 22, 2017 6:40:49 GMT
Can I kill a colossal is right up there with "can i kill 2 heavies in 1 turn" which is also a thing you have to do in mk3. They don't skew that badly. If you cant take a colossal out you're really going to struggle with the 6 to 10 heavy lists out there. I agree. As a Circle player, I think that the ability to effectively control multiple heavies is overstated. Throws aren't super reliable or debilitating, disruption and blind are rare and often hard to apply, etc. It was definitely something you could do in mk2, but in mk3, with power up allowing massive numbers of jacks...no. Just giving some clarification on the perspective being argued here. |
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Oct 22, 2017 12:31:40 GMT
Can I kill a colossal is right up there with "can i kill 2 heavies in 1 turn" which is also a thing you have to do in mk3. They don't skew that badly. If you cant take a colossal out you're really going to struggle with the 6 to 10 heavy lists out there. I disagree, because If I can't kill 2 heavies, I can still kill one and take out the other's arm and cortex: load all the same damage on a colossal and I MIGHT kill one arm(all other structures span both damage grids on the bottom rows), to which it will respond with a 10 degree turn and stomp me with the good arm anyway. Assuming he can't repair it first, of course....and it's much easier to keep your mechanics safe behind a huge base than near 2 large ones. |
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 22, 2017 15:01:35 GMT
Can I kill a colossal is right up there with "can i kill 2 heavies in 1 turn" which is also a thing you have to do in mk3. They don't skew that badly. If you cant take a colossal out you're really going to struggle with the 6 to 10 heavy lists out there. I disagree, because If I can't kill 2 heavies, I can still kill one and take out the other's arm and cortex: load all the same damage on a colossal and I MIGHT kill one arm(all other structures span both damage grids on the bottom rows), to which it will respond with a 10 degree turn and stomp me with the good arm anyway. Assuming he can't repair it first, of course....and it's much easier to keep your mechanics safe behind a huge base than near 2 large ones. Whatcha gonna do about the other 4 to 8 heavies? Dealing with armor and boxes is a thing in mk3 |
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Oct 22, 2017 15:18:02 GMT
I disagree, because If I can't kill 2 heavies, I can still kill one and take out the other's arm and cortex: load all the same damage on a colossal and I MIGHT kill one arm(all other structures span both damage grids on the bottom rows), to which it will respond with a 10 degree turn and stomp me with the good arm anyway. Assuming he can't repair it first, of course....and it's much easier to keep your mechanics safe behind a huge base than near 2 large ones. Whatcha gonna do about the other 4 to 8 heavies? Dealing with armor and boxes is a thing in mk3 I'm not playing shroedinger's game state with you. you compared 2 heavies to the colossal and I pointed out that 2 ehavies will often reflect the damage actually done. |
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 22, 2017 15:29:46 GMT
Yeah and you provided a solution for warjacks, that doesn't even work all that often on warjacks. What happens when you're facing beasts and the caster can drop a fury to heal em? Don't they just turn around and wreck you? Why does you strategy to deal with two heavies at once rely on lucky column placement?
I'm claiming your assessment of how tough it is to deal with colossals is pretty out of whack with the rest of the game playing community and strategy discussion i've seen. Most of that hinges on the fact that as a large single target with usually less than twice the boxes of two heavies of their faction most of the time its easier to concentrate fire on a colossal and scrap it than it is to deal with multiple heavies. My experience supports that.
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