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Post by jisidro on Oct 11, 2017 16:45:35 GMT
I disagree that the Circle ones are OK.
WoldWrath plays because of limited options IMO. If CotW pans out as a go to theme list and the Wold CID comes out as it was on the last week I expect WWraths to phase out again. He has 1 ranged attack, a great animus but one that he has to possible use for and can lose his only ranged attack based on immunities that he himself doesn't have. He has 2 initials which is now a very bad number of initials to have alongside his 1 ranged attack, yes... 1. His good points are immunity to spells which is awesome and being as tough as a colossal. So comparing (Huge simplification here)to Colossals he shots abysmally bad but has the fury system and comparing with Gargants (Another huge simplification here) he hits like a little girl, shots bad-ish and is tougher to crack.
Can you imagine the CID talk if the Dracodile was exactly like the WoldWrath?
The Raptor... well, I think the number taken to the WTC, 1, is enough to point out that he has issues. As I think some of the other numbers show as well...
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 11, 2017 16:47:59 GMT
Agreed, the Siege Animantarax is a phenomenal piece now, I would advise against using it as a bench mark for suitable power levels Legion gargs are hard, I have seen the archangel used pretty well and I think the Blight bringer will come into his own with the new ogrun theme. I am unsure on these ones. Circle Gargs are both OK. the wrath is hard to justify outside of the baldurs as it really wants and arm buff to be an anchor. I thnk it is a little overpriced and it really should have magical weapons....I really only use them with the baldurs. The storm raptor really needs a mat buff and his animus should be 10" range instead of cmd. CMD is just very limiting. he also should probably have deceptively mobile like the archangle so it can play cagey. Overall the majority of the "problem gargs" are in hordes. Warmachine really only has 2 that I think need some work. The stats and abilities of the Legion gargs are on point. Love them both for what they do and I do not say that lightly. I've started creating many lists to utilize the Blightbringer in much more than just an infantry buff. It's even the center piece of my Abby2 list. But again, the animus on each is absolute garbage. Storm Raptor - Mat 6 yes. But I can't say I want it to have deceptively mobile. For 1 it's a unique thing we have and I like it. 2 It has a longer gun range. 2" isn't world ending. But it's not irrelevant. I'd rather see it's animus be made to better fit the bird's range game. I would like to add some anecdotal experience here - The storm raptor under Una is any non-heavy's nightmare. With guardian beast, nimbus, and e-leap/generator. It can cause a frightening amount of damage rolls on the opponent's turn. I only had a unit of Reindeer on that side of the table. I wanted to see just what the Bird could deal with in melee. The guardian beast bite was obviously going to hurt. but loosing all 3 of the other reindeer to the nimbus damage roll after the impact attacks was not what I imagined would happen. It's pretty surprising.
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Post by yourmumrang on Oct 11, 2017 16:55:39 GMT
Having played the AA extensively I can say it is underwhelming for its points and cannot achieve much before boing removed. It is easier to remove than a Khador heavy.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Oct 11, 2017 18:59:19 GMT
Gargossals in Cygnar and Trollbloods (post-CID) are great. The Earthbreaker could use some help. It doesn't gel with the rest of the dwarf stuff as well as it should.
I do think some typed CID would be good, and Gargossals would be a good place to start. After that, a Cavalry CID, and then an artillery CID.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 11, 2017 19:54:20 GMT
Legion gargs are hard, I have seen the archangel used pretty well and I think the Blight bringer will come into his own with the new ogrun theme. I am unsure on these ones. Circle Gargs are both OK. the wrath is hard to justify outside of the baldurs as it really wants and arm buff to be an anchor. I thnk it is a little overpriced and it really should have magical weapons....I really only use them with the baldurs. The storm raptor really needs a mat buff and his animus should be 10" range instead of cmd. CMD is just very limiting. he also should probably have deceptively mobile like the archangle so it can play cagey. Overall the majority of the "problem gargs" are in hordes. Warmachine really only has 2 that I think need some work. The stats and abilities of the Legion gargs are on point. Love them both for what they do and I do not say that lightly. I've started creating many lists to utilize the Blightbringer in much more than just an infantry buff. It's even the center piece of my Abby2 list. But again, the animus on each is absolute garbage. Storm Raptor - Mat 6 yes. But I can't say I want it to have deceptively mobile. For 1 it's a unique thing we have and I like it. 2 It has a longer gun range. 2" isn't world ending. But it's not irrelevant. I'd rather see it's animus be made to better fit the bird's range game. I would like to add some anecdotal experience here - The storm raptor under Una is any non-heavy's nightmare. With guardian beast, nimbus, and e-leap/generator. It can cause a frightening amount of damage rolls on the opponent's turn. I only had a unit of Reindeer on that side of the table. I wanted to see just what the Bird could deal with in melee. The guardian beast bite was obviously going to hurt. but loosing all 3 of the other reindeer to the nimbus damage roll after the impact attacks was not what I imagined would happen. It's pretty surprising. Okay, so...
There are two flying Gargossals. One is a big bulky dragon, the other is a bird. You're saying that one should have deceptively mobile and not the other? Because I'm not seeing a justification.
Let's compare the two, keeping in mind that the Archangel is (at best) at the lower end of playable (as Gargossals go.)
-The Archangel has Mat 6 to the Storm Raptor's 5 -The Archangel has +1 P+S on it's main attack, but lacks electro-leap -The Archangel has deceptively mobile, so it can be 13" away from it's target to the Raptor's 12" (relevant, given the number of things with a 12" threat in the game.) -the Archangel has ROF d3 + 1 on it's gun to the Storm Raptor's Reload (1). -AOE 3 and crit continuous fire vs. lightning generator is probably a wash -They both have animi they will never use unless they're already in deep poop. The Storm Raptor's is, however, arguably better. -The Storm raptor has plasma field (not a defensive mechanism, it wouldn't have done jack to your raptors if you hadn't used their moderately useless impact attacks, and does nothing to warjacks/beasts) and defense 12 vs 11.
All in all, the Storm Raptor is substantially worse than the Archangel in everything except destroying light infantry (in a faction that destroys all the light infantry already.) There's a strong argument that the Storm Raptor is the worst gargantuan (and by extension, the worst gargossal) in the game, and you want to keep it worse than the archangel, which is also in the bottom half of the gargantuan rankings?
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 11, 2017 20:03:49 GMT
The stats and abilities of the Legion gargs are on point. Love them both for what they do and I do not say that lightly. I've started creating many lists to utilize the Blightbringer in much more than just an infantry buff. It's even the center piece of my Abby2 list. But again, the animus on each is absolute garbage. Storm Raptor - Mat 6 yes. But I can't say I want it to have deceptively mobile. For 1 it's a unique thing we have and I like it. 2 It has a longer gun range. 2" isn't world ending. But it's not irrelevant. I'd rather see it's animus be made to better fit the bird's range game. I would like to add some anecdotal experience here - The storm raptor under Una is any non-heavy's nightmare. With guardian beast, nimbus, and e-leap/generator. It can cause a frightening amount of damage rolls on the opponent's turn. I only had a unit of Reindeer on that side of the table. I wanted to see just what the Bird could deal with in melee. The guardian beast bite was obviously going to hurt. but loosing all 3 of the other reindeer to the nimbus damage roll after the impact attacks was not what I imagined would happen. It's pretty surprising. Okay, so...
There are two flying Gargossals. One is a big bulky dragon, the other is a bird. You're saying that one should have deceptively mobile and not the other? Because I'm not seeing a justification.
Let's compare the two, keeping in mind that the Archangel is (at best) at the lower end of playable (as Gargossals go.)
-The Archangel has Mat 6 to the Storm Raptor's 5 -The Archangel has +1 P+S on it's main attack, but lacks electro-leap -The Archangel has deceptively mobile, so it can be 13" away from it's target to the Raptor's 12" (relevant, given the number of things with a 12" threat in the game.) -the Archangel has ROF d3 + 1 on it's gun to the Storm Raptor's Reload (1). -AOE 3 and crit continuous fire vs. lightning generator is probably a wash -They both have animi they will never use unless they're already in deep poop. The Storm Raptor's is, however, arguably better. -The Storm raptor has plasma field (not a defensive mechanism, it wouldn't have done jack to your raptors if you hadn't used their moderately useless impact attacks, and does nothing to warjacks/beasts) and defense 12 vs 11.
All in all, the Storm Raptor is substantially worse than the Archangel in everything except destroying light infantry (in a faction that destroys all the light infantry already.) There's a strong argument that the Storm Raptor is the worst gargantuan (and by extension, the worst gargossal) in the game, and you want to keep it worse than the archangel, which is also in the bottom half of the gargantuan rankings?
Did I state anywhere in my 2 reasons anything about design/fluff relevance? I don't care if the Storm raptor was in fact a fighter jet. I only said that 1) it's unique to the AA and 2) the Raptor has a longer gun range therefore repo 3 is more effective on it. If you had read what I wrote without a biased stand point you would know I want it to get better. Can you believe that? I don't want to make your crappy toy to stay crappy. It's a miracle. But I do not believe giving it repo 3 fixes any of it's problems. They need to be addressed in other ways. Thank you for re-stating the card for everyone else here.
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Post by greytemplar on Oct 11, 2017 20:41:52 GMT
Certain Gargossals need to go into CID.
Judicator, Hurricane, Storm Raptor, Woldwrath, Hydra, Mammoth, Archangel, and Blightbringer all need to go into CID, and probably a few I missed too.
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 11, 2017 20:57:09 GMT
victor need help for sure, he lose 2 inch on is small gun and now hes more expensive than conquest, and he rely om luck to hit with his amazing rat 0. but iam sure some other need help i only play again mountain king and some time a ret one , nothing more People keep bringing up the rat 0 thing. Victor has a 50/50 shot of hitting any small base def 13 or higher, and a slightly higher chance as Def goes down or base size goes up (2 in 3 vs a large base. In the scheme of things that pow 15 shot, on conquest OR victor is negligible. You take those colossals because conquest has creeping barrage to protect against infantry, and Victor reaches out with flare, fire, or rough terrain from 24-26 inches out. I honestly expect the khador colossals to see more love as infantry leaning lists like masters of war start making a comeback.
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 11, 2017 23:09:41 GMT
Certain Gargossals need to go into CID. Judicator, Hurricane, Storm Raptor, Woldwrath, Hydra, Mammoth, Archangel, and Blightbringer all need to go into CID, and probably a few I missed too. So all the non-Troll gargantuans and a couple Colossals? More fuel for the argument of PP overtuning WM during the transition. I think the most glaring issue is that the colossals are mostly massive gun platforms while many(most?) of the gargantuans are mixed arms models at best. And the colossals still hit harder than most of the gargantuans despite having superior fire power. Beyond giving decent animi, either upping the POW/STR or throwing in a couple extra initials would be helpful. I play Legion and the the Blightbringer has two claws, jaws, and a tail for 4 potential initials, same for the Archangel, maybe an extra if we want to add in a kick/stomp.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Oct 12, 2017 0:14:51 GMT
victor need help for sure, he lose 2 inch on is small gun and now hes more expensive than conquest, and he rely om luck to hit with his amazing rat 0. but iam sure some other need help i only play again mountain king and some time a ret one , nothing more People keep bringing up the rat 0 thing. Victor has a 50/50 shot of hitting any small base def 13 or higher, and a slightly higher chance as Def goes down or base size goes up (2 in 3 vs a large base. In the scheme of things that pow 15 shot, on conquest OR victor is negligible. You take those colossals because conquest has creeping barrage to protect against infantry, and Victor reaches out with flare, fire, or rough terrain from 24-26 inches out. I honestly expect the khador colossals to see more love as infantry leaning lists like masters of war start making a comeback. Its gonna be changed regardless if the PP pattern holds. He can fire turn 1 into an enemies starting zone with certain casters. Also everything you listed about victor is immensly unimpressive for 38 points.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 12, 2017 0:57:42 GMT
Yeah they needs to be reworked.
Personally, Cygnar colossal are still point efficient than our heavy warjacks, and also very good on their own as well. The only 'nerf' Stormwall got on the new edition is reduced range and POW on the chain gun(so shorter range and weaker POW of Sustained Fire) and pods are become three times per a game.
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 12, 2017 2:49:07 GMT
People keep bringing up the rat 0 thing. Victor has a 50/50 shot of hitting any small base def 13 or higher, and a slightly higher chance as Def goes down or base size goes up (2 in 3 vs a large base. In the scheme of things that pow 15 shot, on conquest OR victor is negligible. You take those colossals because conquest has creeping barrage to protect against infantry, and Victor reaches out with flare, fire, or rough terrain from 24-26 inches out. I honestly expect the khador colossals to see more love as infantry leaning lists like masters of war start making a comeback. Its gonna be changed regardless if the PP pattern holds. He can fire turn 1 into an enemies starting zone with certain casters. Also everything you listed about victor is immensly unimpressive for 38 points. A single pow 15 crit devastation RNG 15 is immensely unimpressive for 36 points too. Taken alone every collossal/gargantuan pays way too much for the volume of fire they create. They have other attributes like 2X boxes, high armor and high Pow but the complaint was about rat 0 which is why I posted about the relevant shooting. And the guaranteed change is speculative they removed one, but some merc list had one pop up immediately after.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 12, 2017 3:20:28 GMT
I disagree that the Circle ones are OK. WoldWrath plays because of limited options IMO............Can you imagine the CID talk if the Dracodile was exactly like the WoldWrath? Can not argue that the Wold CiD will make the Wrath almost irrelevant as 2 heavies will be better in almost every situation. Thinking He really needs some tweak like magic Weapons and Pow + Str 20 on his fists. I think the raptor is one of the worst gargantuans in the game for sure. A big part of why the Wrath seems bad now where earlier in MK3 he was considered better is I honestly feel the game is undergoing horrible power creep thanks to CiD. The Dracodile is a perfect example of this. It is a very good gargantuan and people on there seem to not appreciate it getting four initials and free charges. It’s pretty cheap considering all it does.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Oct 12, 2017 5:13:43 GMT
]A single pow 15 crit devastation RNG 15 is immensely unimpressive for 36 points too. That's why I also can get creeping barrage, or 4 Extra Pow 10 AOE3 High Explosive Shots (That are also longer ranged then the Victors Machineguns). And the Victor gives all that up, for a Point cost raise, and a gun it can't aim for shit. Point being that the Victor is a massive points sink, and its main utility (Its gun) is so unreliable and shoddy, your getting very little relative value. And the conquest isn't "The best" or anything, but can much more reliably and better thresh infantry and have utility.
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 12, 2017 5:49:33 GMT
Its not unreliable, its metaed out because setting things on fire isn't much of a thing because the need to generically thresh infantry is borderline at best right now, and stealth swarm infantry are also generally metaed out. The key is "right now" Khador has 2 casters that let it reach out and bad touch 5" aoe's twice a turn and a 3 point artillerist. The minute the meta shifts and the frankly very versatile options its gun has become relevant again people will be Female Doging about how conquest just isn't as good.
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