|
Post by samuraijaques on Oct 16, 2020 22:15:51 GMT
Okay so I'm finally getting some practice in with wolves in brawl under vlad2. I've never played the theme or vlad before now because it struck me as unfair to just run the top tier list. Good lord is it powerful though. Also who TF thought void archons were balanced?!
I do have a question though...
What are ternions for? I honestly felt like I was just slapping blizzards down on various models all game and that doesn't seem worth the 7 points for that unit. I guess you get them for free but still. Am I missing something here?
|
|
|
Post by steeltitan on Oct 17, 2020 12:22:09 GMT
I, too, never played the theme before trying out BM. I think it's a great way to scratch that itch without having to buy and paint 4-5 units of Doomies. Win win! I do think you never have to feel bad for playing the top tier list in Khador. I think it's strong but it's hardly the top of the actual competitive meta, although it supposed to be a strong drop into various other strong lists.
With regards to the Void Archon. I also feel it's very strong and I can see how it might be too much in BM, IN OTHER FACTIONS (but I don't know enough about that to judge). I actually feel it's quite a critical part to make WoW work in BM. Without the Void, all you're left with are 6 dudes to do most of the damage. 6 dudes that die pretty easily. The Void gives you that bit of extra damage output and flexibility of where to apply it. Hmm yeah, I don't think that the list would compete well without the Void. Also, in my games, the Void has generally died after doing its one-turn thing. It did enough, don't get me wrong but it didn't contribute turn after turn. Last game against Minions, it flew up, sprayed some Goblin Bellows Crew, killed them, teleported to Rorsh and killed him, removing both him and Brine from the table. Still, this awesome, game-swinging activation was only made possible because my opponent killed off a bunched of Doomies before they got to contribute, putting the Void full of souls.
Yeah, Ternions, same here. I have them as a req options too and I think they will likely do well if you face a list with infantry. Having the options to bring back Doomies with both them and your Koldun Lord seems quite strong (considering you only start with six). The clouds I don't rate super highly because the Doomies can still be killed. That doesn't seem like such a big issue if you play 75p and those cloud-Doomies in front block LOS to your other 30+ Doomies but in BM that math just doesn't work out. Every Doom Reaver that dies in BM is a big deal. As such, I see them mostly as a way to bring back Doomies, not for their clouds (of course you can still use them to boost DEF that way but I would never pay a req point for just that). I guess Ice Cage-ing things has its uses but I generally feat on the turn I can commit enough Reavers and at that point you don't really need the DEF debuff but I guess it can be situationally useful.
Having all of that said though, I recently made the change to put them in my sideboard and put Butcher4 in my main list. Technically this doesn't matter anymore because you can now sideboard at the beginning of every game. I haven't gone up against a list with easy to prey on infantry, to get Doomies back and the units I did see were Precursor Knights that I can't target. I don't love love Butcher4 (he feels a bit too much 'more of the same') but he's a piece that the opponent has to deal with...unlike the Ternion.
So yeah...I'd see the Ternion as a sideboard choice and something else, likely B4, as your main req option pick.
|
|
4dgar
Demo Gamer
Posts: 13
|
Post by 4dgar on Nov 5, 2020 1:12:09 GMT
It sounds there's consensus that Vlad 2 WoW is a consensus tier one for Brawlmachine. It's proactive, it hits hard, and it has some resilience to ranged attacks.
Anyone have strong feelings about anything other than Vlad 2 WoW?
I'm intrigued by Havock's Flame in the Darkness list with a Centurion. Has anyone tried it or something similar?
|
|
|
Post by steeltitan on Nov 10, 2020 9:52:07 GMT
I can't speak to Flames because I've never used it in Khador and I despite the theme because of playing against the Cygnar version more often than I care for.
I agree, I think that Vlad2 WoW is really good in BM. I played a bunch of games with it now and I find myself defaulting to it with list selection more often than not. I've only twice opted for Karchev Jaws and that is for lists that can reliably, from range, deal with the Doom Reavers. That unit is the lynchpin in the army so if something can deal with that from range, I will likely always choose the other list.
Apart from that, I've tried Karchev Jaws, OW1 Jaws and Strakhov2 in LoS. I think Karchev has game as a off-list but I find it very hard to come up with a good list that skews ARM but also still brings enough solos/units to be able to win on scenario. OW1 has potential because she shuts down infantry while your BG can focus on punching ARM. Her toolkit is also deep which is good in BM and she can surprise assassinate. However, I don't have enough experience with her to make the most out of her but I'm keen to play her more. Strakhov2 was a big fail, partly because of my own mistakes and partly everything just didn't work together as nicely as I expected, especially if you can *just* play Wolves.
Our group still have a few league rounds to play but after that I'm keen to try Kozlov in Wolves with a jack brick (3 heavies). My initial list was Harkevich but someone suggested Kozlov instead and I actually like him quite a bit for the list I have in mind.
Apart from that, I don't know. LoS list building is just a pain, the options are too expensive to create a good balance between BG/units/solos. I can't come up with a solid enough WGK list that doesn't just melt and I've never played AK to decide whether it has legs in BM. My gut feeling is that the units are too expensive to create a well-rounded list.
Something else I have zero experience with, Warriors of the Old Faith? It seems to have strong solos, solos are good in BM...is there something there?
|
|
4dgar
Demo Gamer
Posts: 13
|
Post by 4dgar on Nov 11, 2020 20:40:59 GMT
If Menite Archon is as strong as people say, would Protectorate Initiates of the Order of the Wall + Menite Archon + Yuri the Axe (requisition) make for a good starting point?
|
|
|
Post by Havock on Nov 12, 2020 21:38:09 GMT
I would go for Vilmon as requisition. Just a better piece.
And yes, initiates + Archon is a pretty good starting point.
|
|
4dgar
Demo Gamer
Posts: 13
|
Post by 4dgar on Nov 13, 2020 3:56:03 GMT
Feora 3 [+27] - Grolar [18] - Redeemer [11] High Paladin Dartan Vilmon [0(6)] Menite Archon [8] Paladin of the Order of the Wall [4] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Initiates of the Wall [7]
|
|
|
Post by Havock on Nov 13, 2020 7:30:28 GMT
I'd drop the Paladin for a War Dog (it makes Feora3 surprisingly resilient) and swap the Redeemer for a Marauder.
|
|
|
Post by steeltitan on Nov 13, 2020 8:42:58 GMT
Why would you pick the Grolar? Honest question, you never really see it in Khador and I wonder, without any Menoth experience, why he'd be worth the points here. It seems that especially with Feora3's spell list, you can turn any jack into quite the killing machine, so why pay a premium.
I kind of like the Redeemer, in theory, as a way to get rid of solos. With scenario elements closer together, aiming and Incite (+boosting), you should be able to get some accurate shots off and prevent your opponent from scoring flags, which is huge.
Related question; is there any merit to running Vlad3?
|
|
|
Post by Havock on Nov 13, 2020 18:13:13 GMT
The obvious part is that battle + incite makes the Grolar's gun go brrrrt
|
|
4dgar
Demo Gamer
Posts: 13
|
Post by 4dgar on Nov 13, 2020 20:27:00 GMT
For some reason I was thinking that Redeemer did fire damage and would synergize with the Menite Archon, but I looked again and that's not the case. I was conflating it with the Judicator. Maybe Hand of Judgement + Marauder is a better battlegroup?
|
|
|
Post by steeltitan on Nov 24, 2020 9:06:55 GMT
It's Kozlov time baby!
So, themes. I'm thinking Jaws.
THEME: Initially (both pre and post update) I wasn't considering Jaws because I don't like the overlap between the theme giving Pathfinder and Kozlov solving it well himself (Solid Ground). I was mostly looking at WoW because it gives you access to the Void Archon. That by itself might be reason to run WoW. However, maybe Jaws' theme benefit (PF) solves something else. With 6 focus, 3 upkeeps, 2-3 Jacks, and the excellent threat of Jackhammer, not having to actually cast/upkeep Solid Ground might be really nice.
ADJUNCT: So, in Jaws, you save yourself the focus upkeeping Solid Ground (although you still have it as an option in case you need steady), which considering you only have 6 is a big deal. Fury you will likely always have on something and TacSup is generally useful for all kinds of things. As such, you're basically playing with a 4 focus caster. This makes me think the Adjunct is mandatory for him. It saves you another focus for one of the upkeeps. Additionally, the cloud will help keep Kozlov a little safer because he will likely be a little farther forward and DEF17 vs shooting is awesome. The pressure of his personal threat and the range on Jackhammer means you will get most out of him having him farther up. The extra range on Jackhammer (or even Fury) is also really nice.
JACKS: So, at that point, Kozlov is basically a 5 focus caster, which is fine. With access to Fury, I don't feel I need to take a Juggernaut as basically every POW16 Jack can reach POW19. My current planned BG is Kodiak / Devastator / Marauder. Each jack can kill ARM hard with Fury, if needed, but each jack can also play well on scenario. The Kodiak can throw things out of zones and clear infantry with steam. The Devastator can bulldoze and also clear infantry with Rain of Death. He's also excellent to just run at your opponent's flag and see them struggle to deal with ARM23/25. A Marauder can combo smite things out of zones or just punch things with 2xPOW19. All of them have POW16 but Fury plus Feat...enough said. Ow yeah, let's not forget Gang Fighter.
UNITS: Gang Fighter. In BM you might not *need* even more POW than Fury+Feat but it's nice if you can get an extra +2. Enter Kayazi Eliminators. With Parry and Acrobatics they can get in weird places. They are probably our easiest triggers. Apart from that, I'm having a hard time fitting in more units although a 3p min Mechanics unit might be nice, maybe for the sideboard.
SOLOS: I still don't know how well 5 focus will work in practice so I'm considering a Forge Seer. Also, Eiryss/disruption is really annoying in BM. If you want to cycle Fury or really inflict some damage with Jackhammer or fuel two jacks, you run out quickly. It's also nice to have a tougher solo for your flag, so you don't have to risk the Adjunct.
Considering Kozlov's feat works on warrior models as well, both the extra SPD and the extra damage dice, makes me look at Yuri. He hits pretty hard generally but I find that you can't dent Jacks enough to really make them worry about him. 13" threat with POW13 5d6 on the charge will likely change this. It's also another model that can trigger Gang Fighter farther up the board.
That leads to:
[Kozlov 1] Lord Kozlov, Viscount of Scarsgrad [+28] - Devastator [14] - Kodiak [13] - Marauder [11] - Greylord Adjunct [4] Gobber Tinker [2] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Yuri the Axe [0(5)] Kayazy Eliminators [5]
The Tinker is a filler because I just have 2p left. It's another fairly sturdy solo, for on your flag or to move up with your jacks. It doesn't sound terrible.
What do you guys think?
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Nov 24, 2020 12:15:57 GMT
I'm looking forward to trying Kozlov again. He was a favourite of mine before, so he should be even better now.
Not actually a massive fan of that list, though! Particularly your choice of nothing but P16 jacks. Sure, Kozlov has a lot of damage fixers but there's a bit more to it than first appears. For example, you can't have two targets benefit from both Fury and his feat due to order of activation effects. It's hard to use Jackhammer on his feat turn because you need to use the feat before your jacks charge.
You've got the Eliminators down as Gang Fighter triggers and I'm worried that you've missed the fact they can take down a heavy; Fury + Feat and two charging Combo Strikes would do, on average, 28 damage to an Ironclad.
So it feels like everything wants Fury, but most things can't have it. Which is why I would absolutely include a Juggernaut. I also believe that it's better to use buffs to make a good thing amazing rather than an okay thing good. It's also more focus efficient; you are unlikely to meet much that the Jugger can't take down with charge + 1 focus.
But the flip side of this is that Gang Fighter is like a pseudo-Fury. +3 is obviously better than +2, but the +2 is almost free on the jacks. Having a Jugger means that you don't need fury on one of your jacks 90% of the time, which lets you use Fury on something else freely.
I'd drop the Devastator for the Jugger and use the extra point to upgrade the Tinker to a min unit of Mechanics.
Why drop the Devastator? Because I don't think it's an effective choice; all of Kozlov's gear is built around attacking, and if you attack you lose the most effective bit of the Devastator's gear. Plus, their best attack doesn't work with any of the buffs.
Why the mechanics? Extra unit, expendable bodies to run into Gang Fighter range, and potentially useful in and of themselves since you can repair a couple of boxes on a near-dead jack and then use Jackhammer. There is a fringe benefit, too, in that if you can have a merc solo in the sideboard for a bit of flexibility. This does leave you without a decent flag camper though.
I might be tempted to swap Yuri for Ol' Grim when he's released, too; bit of ranged, a magic weapon, and a flag camper.
|
|
|
Post by tjhairball on Nov 24, 2020 16:15:49 GMT
Thoughts on the classic Old Witch + Behemoth pairing for Brawlmachine?
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on Nov 24, 2020 17:47:10 GMT
[Kozlov 1] Lord Kozlov, Viscount of Scarsgrad [+28] - Devastator [14] - Kodiak [13] - Marauder [11] - Greylord Adjunct [4] Gobber Tinker [2] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Yuri the Axe [0(5)] Kayazy Eliminators [5] I feel like 8 points of support models for basically 2 focus might be a bit much in low point games? If you take hocestbellum's advice and sub in a Juggernaut, then you probably won't need the extra focus as much, allowing you to swap out the Forgeseer. Also, we were discussing a Spriggan earlier: bulldoze and 2" reach can potentially make the most of Jackhammer as a threat extender (trample plus repo gives 10", equal to a running Kodiak, but with bulldoze and extra inch on the weapon range).
|
|