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Post by lorddragonmaster on Sept 28, 2020 17:14:24 GMT
Is Flames with Zerkova any good at this point level? You maybe get an archon, and a min unit of legion?
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Post by hocestbellum on Sept 28, 2020 18:11:52 GMT
She can just run them into range and pop. They are fragile, but there isn't a lot of screening either, nor will people be carpet bombing them to oblivion like they can do at 75 points. True, but it doesn't feel like it deserves the ultimate sanction to me... You're relying on those 5 models to carry the day because there is basically nothing else in the list. Most moderately tanky casters wouldn't die to a handful of P12s, and whilst your opponent doesn't have the ability to carpet bomb you, what else is there in the list to shoot? You've got 8 points max to play with. Now I think a bit more about it, I can see the attrition and scenario side of it too. They could do a lot of damage to infantry and solos, which could cripple you in scenario... They'd certainly do a number on the IFP list I tried last week. Okay, so I've talked my way round to understanding it, but it still feels mad to me that Z2 is that dangerous in any format!
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Post by Havock on Sept 28, 2020 21:48:44 GMT
Is Flames with Zerkova any good at this point level? You maybe get an archon, and a min unit of legion? Something like this? conflictchamber.com/?c3200p_-1J7b9BkToKoIoJoWKhador [Theme] Flame in the Darkness [Zerkova 1] Koldun Kommander Aleksandra Zerkova [+28] - Centurion [17] - Marauder [11] Morrowan Archon [8] Ragman [4] Savio Montero Acosta [0(6)] Order of Illumination Resolutes (max) [13]
Resolutes because they are the ultimate jack-of-all-trades unit. - Cloud Walls keep you safe from a lot of things at this point level. - Z1's Feat is even more bullshit when not much can hose her down. - Archon + Clouds = Annoying high DEF. - The Centurion is there to just be an ass with the polarity field. And be a hard boy. It's just a Khador jack with a fancy stick and shield and a blue paintjob really.
- Ragman helps killing chonky things (especially with Savio) but if you don't feel like you need him, feel free to swap him out for something else, like a pair of Battle Priests?
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Post by hocestbellum on Sept 29, 2020 12:00:22 GMT
I've yet to play the theme (As the only non-jack models I have for it are Zerkova1 and Ragman!) but I always liked the look of the Lancer. Being able to snipe things from 29" away with Hex Blast or line up multiple P12 magic shotguns seemed worth the price of entry for sure.
And the Thamarite Archon would give you a beast of a gun whilst making Zerkova herself really quite accurate.
Resolutes being immune to Z1's clouds is a very neat combo, though!
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Post by Havock on Sept 29, 2020 16:41:01 GMT
I feel the lancer is luxury though, having two heavies gives you a very solid (counter)punch.
And 25 points leaves little room for luxury.
Also, Resolutes are not just "immune" to yer clouds (which releases some OOA issues) but if you screen them correctly you can make them (or anything in the list) +4 DEF against melee attacks due to the Morrowan Archon and cloud effect.
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Post by hocestbellum on Sept 30, 2020 8:43:42 GMT
LoS have put up the faction stats for Season 2 of their league: HEREQuite interesting viewing! 8 Khador players using 11 different casters, and all 7 themes represented. Some you'd expect (Sorscha3 Armoured Corps, Vlad1 Winter Guard Kommand, Vlad2 Wolves of Winter, Karchev JotW) and some you wouldn't (Old Witch Jaws, Zerkova Jaws, Karchev Wolves) Every non-character jack bar the Mad Dog is present, Kossites, Manhunter, Drakhun and the War Dog popping their heads in: Nice to see such a wide variety of models!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2020 14:23:54 GMT
LoS have put up the faction stats for Season 2 of their league: HEREQuite interesting viewing! 8 Khador players using 11 different casters, and all 7 themes represented. Some you'd expect (Sorscha3 Armoured Corps, Vlad1 Winter Guard Kommand, Vlad2 Wolves of Winter, Karchev JotW) and some you wouldn't (Old Witch Jaws, Zerkova Jaws, Karchev Wolves) Every non-character jack bar the Mad Dog is present, Kossites, Manhunter, Drakhun and the War Dog popping their heads in: Nice to see such a wide variety of models! I love the old bat in Jaws! She really helps clear mobs so that her jacks can focus on busting armor.
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Post by steeltitan on Oct 8, 2020 11:57:44 GMT
I just started a 6-man WarTable BM league myself, running Vlad2 WoW and Karchev Jaws. I kind of regret not taking OW1 in Jaws. Karchev just feels so predictable and with the threat ranges he offers (even with S0), you'll probably still get alpha-ed pretty hard. I just don't know if he cuts it against experienced players. While OW1 doesn't have all the answers, I think she adds something quite strong to a BM list. Yesterday was my first game into Minions (Rask1/Azzazello) and I just defaulted to Vlad, which turned out to be a pretty decent fight (one win/one loss).
I just listened to the LoS episode too and I wonder though, it's nice to see such a wide spread but, having tried to make BM lists myself, I feel nothing is quite good enough. The WoW list is probably the one list I'm quite happy with. It punched hard, it's fast, it has options. The rest...it just feels it has glaring weaknesses.
So, is the LoS spread because you can play everything and it's good or because everyone is just grasping at straws?
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 8, 2020 13:22:25 GMT
There's the unspoken third option that the spread is because no-one yet has a clue what they're doing!
In a lot of previous discussions about points levels in the wider game you'd often hear a lot of people say things along the lines of "everything under 75 points is rubbish because I can't take everything I want/need". We're seeing that played out to an extreme here.
There is no way to fit all the bells and whistles into 25 points, but at the same time your opponent can't fit all his cool stuff in either. Between points restrictions, FA1, and banning of format-dominant models it's essentially a whole new meta
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Oct 8, 2020 14:28:38 GMT
There's the unspoken third option that the spread is because no-one yet has a clue what they're doing! In a lot of previous discussions about points levels in the wider game you'd often hear a lot of people say things along the lines of "everything under 75 points is rubbish because I can't take everything I want/need". We're seeing that played out to an extreme here. There is no way to fit all the bells and whistles into 25 points, but at the same time your opponent can't fit all his cool stuff in either. Between points restrictions, FA1, and banning of format-dominant models it's essentially a whole new meta Absolutely. Support models lose a ton of power in this format, and models that are cost efficient become terrifyingly strong. There's been talk in the Discord group of banning Molik Karn and/or Imperatus, and I can see why. I played a couple of games with Mak3da, first with the list proposed on their website (Karn, Krea, Brute, Archidon, Terrorizer, min PGBH, River Raider), and then switched out the Krea for a Savage, and you can really feel how important every single work piece is. The lists that are going to dominate the meta are the ones that get 100% work out of every model. Threat ranges are a big deal, as per usual, but even more so because you're 50+10-14 points down from the regular game - every lost piece is a big deal. In every game I've seen with Khador so far the 'jacks have struggled massively to justify their presence, and I don't think they're tanky or spammable enough in the format to reach critical mass. Compare that to the Initiates, who are a free pick and nigh impossible to kill without a massive resource investment. I haven't seen them in action yet, but just off conjecture I'm leaning towards banning them. Ironically it seems that almost no one in the group wants to play either Harby or the Initiates, so there's no hands on experience with them, and so the Jaden and the rest don't want to stick them in the ban list yet.
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Post by Havock on Oct 8, 2020 14:46:17 GMT
Initiates aren't too bad; they are points efficient by virtue of being 7/free points for three resilient models with shield guard but... They can't really fight.
And unless you freebie them they are like over a third of your non-WJP allowance. FA1 helps as well.
The reason you don't see Harby is because she doesn't have enough army to put between yours and her. Lower points = relative increase in viability of beefcake casters.
Imperatus is honestly too good at low points.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Oct 8, 2020 15:02:34 GMT
Initiates aren't too bad; they are points efficient by virtue of being 7/free points for three resilient models with shield guard but... They can't really fight. And unless you freebie them they are like over a third of your non-WJP allowance. FA1 helps as well. The reason you don't see Harby is because she doesn't have enough army to put between yours and her. Lower points = relative increase in viability of beefcake casters. Imperatus is honestly too good at low points. I completely forgot about Phoenix Protocol. Yea, this is bad. Anything that poses the 'bring X tech or lose' question is bad, in this format it's worse. Impy's damage output potential is lower than Molik's, but god damn is that some defensive tech he's got. Do people run him with Elara2?
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Oct 8, 2020 22:40:29 GMT
Initiates aren't too bad; they are points efficient by virtue of being 7/free points for three resilient models with shield guard but... They can't really fight. And unless you freebie them they are like over a third of your non-WJP allowance. FA1 helps as well. The reason you don't see Harby is because she doesn't have enough army to put between yours and her. Lower points = relative increase in viability of beefcake casters. Imperatus is honestly too good at low points. I completely forgot about Phoenix Protocol. Yea, this is bad. Anything that poses the 'bring X tech or lose' question is bad, in this format it's worse. Impy's damage output potential is lower than Molik's, but god damn is that some defensive tech he's got. Do people run him with Elara2? I'm not people but but Impy with scything touch and boundless charge sounds hella scary.
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Post by Havock on Oct 9, 2020 1:58:56 GMT
Normally you can counter a phoenix protocol by just slapping it with something else. You probably don't have something else at 25 points.
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Post by steeltitan on Oct 10, 2020 10:13:02 GMT
There's the unspoken third option that the spread is because no-one yet has a clue what they're doing! What is this? Logic? This is the internet?! Ok, fine...
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