Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2020 12:59:20 GMT
One of our best jacks to be honest.
It's cheap for wot it is at 8 points and with a damage buff like Signs n Portents or Fury (especially Fury) it can do a lot of damage and trades up against just about every other heavy in the game. Two Forgeseers can fully load one up so it requires less investment from your caster than you'd think.
Is it reliable? No, but ye get wot ye paid for. Tag team them with Ragers for a cheap battlegroup that can flood the board with cheap steel bodies.
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Post by michael on Sept 14, 2020 13:36:00 GMT
One of our best jacks to be honest. It's cheap for wot it is at 8 points and with a damage buff like Signs n Portents or Fury (especially Fury) it can do a lot of damage and trades up against just about every other heavy in the game. Two Forgeseers can fully load one up so it requires less investment from your caster than you'd think. Is it reliable? No, but ye get wot ye paid for. Tag team them with Ragers for a cheap battlegroup that can flood the board with cheap steel bodies. (Surely this isn’t the old squee...?) I dispute pretty much everything here. 1) Signs & Portents takes a substandard model and makes it average. But Warmachine doesn’t reward adequacy. Players are much better off taking good warjack a and making them outstanding. (Caveat: unless you have, somehow, exactly 8 warjack points that you must spend.) Also we’re talking Vlad1 if you’re talking S&P. The majority of casters in this faction are not Vlad1. This jack doesn’t trade up nearly so well under, well, anyone else. You really should note that your advice does not apply unless Vlad1 is present. 2) Bringing up Forge Seers means the player must be using either Wolves of Winter (where single Forge Seers really are uncommon, much less 2 of them) or Jaws of the Wolf. I don’t think you want to waste points on dead weight in Wolves (but who knows, maybe there’s something going on in my Wolves of Winter thread that I missed), and I really feel like Jaws is better off with Marauders and, I don’t know, anything else over Berserkers. “Use the Berserker to piece trade!” “So throw away 8 points that is all but guaranteed to die against any opposing heavy that’ll be hitting at straight dice, or even dice + X, rather than say baiting with a Devastator where the damage (excepting anything but the highest-end attacks) is going to be “dice minus a big number” and leave your jack functional...?” (What an argument. I’ve got nothing on that one.) And again, the Berserker still is an easily-neutered 8 points that sometimes does your opponent’s job for him and removes itself from the table. Just...why? Controversial closing statement: if you have ~8 points left to spend, you should spend it on an archon. Always. They’re stupidly under-costed, almost-MK I-levels of good.
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Post by P'tit Nico on Sept 14, 2020 14:55:09 GMT
Two Forgeseers can fully load one up so it requires less investment from your caster than you'd think. If you have to take 8 points of support to make an 8-point jack work, then it's probably not worth it. Forge Seers are overcosted as Empower bots, and Berserkers are bad.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2020 15:15:09 GMT
Eh, whatever works for ye lads.
Keep in mind I don't play international tournaments and I fight Nomads on a regular basis. Nomads trade up against a lot of Khador heavies.
In my personal experiences: - ARM 23 is good for anti-range. Dies to a dedicated can-cracking heavy. - Berserkers never bloody explode when I keep trying to make them.
In my games of Mk 3, I find everything that gets charged dies, so if yer gonna lose something to a charging enemy heavy, it might as well be something cheap. In a game where threat 12" is the bare minimum required , Khador rarely gets the alpha at threat 10" with most SPD buff casters (barring Vlad1 and Strakhov1), so ye either sacrifice chaff infantry or a cheap jack that can't just be ignored. The Berserker fulfills the latter, especially if their infantry are not blast immune.
This is the Motherland. Sacrifices must be made.
Warmachine doesn't reward adequacy? Well, welcome to Khador. In mk 3, we are a faction of adequate jacks. We do not have the fancy tools of the Southern dogs, but we make do with what we have. That is how it has been since Prime and that is probably how it will always be.
Also I figured when I mentioned Signs and Portents it was kind of a given that I was talking about Vlad1. Very few of our casters can actually run multiple jacks well. I'd honestly say Butcher1 (Full Throttle, Blood Frenzy) and Strakhov (Resourceful, Iron Fist) are probably our most efficient, but the former doesn't have threat extension.
So far in mk 3 I have required a cheap, disposable jack to do damage under buffs or block an important piece and the Berserker has delivered on both those fronts.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2020 15:20:32 GMT
Also, the reason I don't take an Archon is because: 1) My merc slot is almost always being used by something else. In the Binki-Brigade thread you'll notice my list uses an Ironhead. 2) I dislike the archons because mindlessly chasing the latest overtuned untested flavour is wot turned me off another wargame that shan't be named. 3) Most importantly... I really, REALLY hate models with bloody wings.
But I do have a Berserker. Two in fact, with a couple of secondhand ones (that a mate is kindly pinning for me) on the way.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2020 15:41:39 GMT
*the usual addled rambling* If you have to take 8 points of support to make an 8-point jack work, then it's probably not worth it. Forge Seers are overcosted as Empower bots, and Berserkers are bad. Why's that? Just use them again on the next one next round, just be mindful to make use of terrain to keep them from getting shot off the table.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2020 15:55:07 GMT
I figured out how to bold words again!
[ b ] [ / b ] !!!
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Post by michael on Sept 14, 2020 15:58:30 GMT
For what it’s worth: I hate archons too. They’re pointlessly, thoughtlessly “too good.” They remind me far too much of MK I, when models literally were “It’s so broken, you’d be stupid NOT to take it.”
Also for what it’s worth: I own 7 Berserkers (6 metal, 1 plastic) and another plastic kit that I was going to magnetize, and which started collecting dust after the last round of Berserker chassis tuning. I used them and advocated for them extensively in previous editions. I’m not just some doofus theorycrafting without actual experience. I’ve used them plenty this edition, before and after the last round of tweaks.
Also also, I’ve got lots of thoughts about why MK III themes are especially bad for Khador, probably only hitting Retribution harder than us. It boils down to “everything in Khador really was built to work together”. There are model design assumptions made 15 years ago and which are still present, such as Ice Cages will be available whenever you want them, or sprays, or whatever.
And the point cost tweaks between editions really hit us just hard enough so we can’t rely on “quantity over quality” like we used to, because it turns out that even “adequate” models can get the job done when you have 25% more of them to go around.
But...whatever.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2020 16:18:08 GMT
And the point cost tweaks between editions really hit us just hard enough so we can’t rely on “quantity over quality” like we used to, because it turns out that even “adequate” models can get the job done when you have 25% more of them to go around.But...whatever. Haha, well, I used to rely heavily on quality over quantity (i.e: the mk 1 and 2 Binki-brigade) , but now we're in this funny 'middle ground' in terms of design space, so I've been going in the opposite direction. It's not easy remaining positive about the faction, especially how we seem to get nerfed when other factions complain loud enough, but I find if I just play enough daft ideas, something will work out. We have traded places with mercs insofar as the power curve sits, so I say there's something to be learned there. Chips are down, so try and get creative; try something retarded and ye never know, ye might discover a Khador list that might actually be fun in mk III.
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shmeep
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Post by shmeep on Sept 15, 2020 10:07:28 GMT
For what it’s worth: I hate archons too. They’re pointlessly, thoughtlessly “too good.” They remind me far too much of MK I, when models literally were “It’s so broken, you’d be stupid NOT to take it.” Also for what it’s worth: I own 7 Berserkers (6 metal, 1 plastic) and another plastic kit that I was going to magnetize, and which started collecting dust after the last round of Berserker chassis tuning. I used them and advocated for them extensively in previous editions. I’m not just some doofus theorycrafting without actual experience. I’ve used them plenty this edition, before and after the last round of tweaks. Also also, I’ve got lots of thoughts about why MK III themes are especially bad for Khador, probably only hitting Retribution harder than us. It boils down to “everything in Khador really was built to work together”. There are model design assumptions made 15 years ago and which are still present, such as Ice Cages will be available whenever you want them, or sprays, or whatever. And the point cost tweaks between editions really hit us just hard enough so we can’t rely on “quantity over quality” like we used to, because it turns out that even “adequate” models can get the job done when you have 25% more of them to go around.But...whatever. Have to agree with you on the Archons. I think the Dhunian is a bit of tech Trollbloods needed for something like the past 3 years, and helps flesh them out again as the chunky faction. Primal Archon is pretty good, but it's far from an auto include. The rest? Power creep is a fact of life, a (competitive) game can't stay economically viable without introducing new mechanics that require you to buy new product to stay relevant, but the archons leave a bad taste in my mouth. It's bad enough CID makes a new faction/theme bonkers strong every couple of months, not every single faction has one or more models that's so powerful that it's almost mandatory to use. I'm sort of fine with the rock paper scissors mechanics themes create/encourage, but it still bothers me that every CID cycle you get a new theme that's a scissor shaped rock you can wipe your ass with. The new Legion CID and models were obviously designed to hard counter the infantry flood that FiTD brought with it, and to a lesser degree to also counter Exalted.
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snoozer
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Post by snoozer on Sept 16, 2020 6:57:16 GMT
Ok so my 2 cents on this topic/these topics:
Berserker & Co are still cheaper. At least 3 points. This means if you commit one then you lose 8 points and your opponent has to commit something close to what he has to commit against a juggler chassie. This game is mainly attrition and Szenario based, so if a 8 point model can do the job you profit. This is their inherent advantage. Spaming still makes no sense and they will never be a big backbone of a list anymore. Also I would never put focus on them. Maybe a buff, never focus. If the guy explodes, then you are the one that is losing on attrition. They are nice fillers or sorcha0 pets and can be useful despite their inherent problem. I mean you still get a heavy for a lights cost... That can't be horrible.
Archons: Unless you have the two themes that can take them "naturally", I think there is no reasons for Archons in khador. They are not friendly Faction in the non-specific lists and that makes them much less useful. And they block your merc slot. In wow or if you play menoth with vlad3, we'll there they make sense I guess.
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Post by Havock on Sept 16, 2020 14:42:32 GMT
You can pay 12 points for a berserker and a forge seer.
Or pay 11 for a Marauder.
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Post by P'tit Nico on Sept 16, 2020 15:22:28 GMT
your opponent has to commit something close to what he has to commit against a juggler chassie. Not even close actually. The Berserker not only has 2 less ARM than the regular 'jacks, but it also has 7 less HP. It gets crippled by a breeze. Squee was talking about Nomads. Well, an unbuffed Nomad with 3 focus has a 48% chance of killing a Berserker, and only 0.6% chance of killing a Juggernaut!
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Post by michael on Sept 16, 2020 15:35:37 GMT
your opponent has to commit something close to what he has to commit against a juggler chassie. Not even close actually. The Berserker not only has 2 less ARM than the regular 'jacks, but it also has 7 less HP. It gets crippled by a breeze. Squee was talking about Nomads. Well, an unbuffed Nomad with 3 focus has a 48% chance of killing a Berserker, and only 0.6% chance of killing a Juggernaut! I was about to point out this inaccuracy as well. Thank you for beating me to it! (And the discussion about how quickly the Berserker loses systems compared to our other jacks is pertinent.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 6:01:58 GMT
You're all forgetting an important fact about khador.
PP hates our jacks. 😆
Don't compare it to other jacks in the game. Compare it to what is within our stable and in a game where the standard format is about trading, Berserkers and Marauders are the best we have as everything else is simply too expensive.
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