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Post by MacGuffin on Mar 21, 2020 22:35:15 GMT
Reading comments elsewhere, it seems that Khador players think that the berserker is a bad warjack. Is this really true? It seems like it might work well with Butcher1, Vlad1, and OW2, no? Asking because I’d like to buy into the faction, and a gaggle of berserkers seems like a fun idea.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Mar 21, 2020 23:37:28 GMT
Reading comments elsewhere, it seems that Khador players think that the berserker is a bad warjack. Is this really true? It seems like it might work well with Butcher1, Vlad1, and OW2, no? Asking because I’d like to buy into the faction, and a gaggle of berserkers seems like a fun idea. Yes, any jack that cannot spend more than one focus without exploding is a bad jack in my book and i say this as someone who actually likes the Rager who can also blow up. That doesnt mean you cannot make them work ever, but any buff you can give them to increase their output but any other jack will benefit from those same buffs as well. Their main selling point is the price tag, but that is moot if it can just blow up and you can wave those 8 points good bye.
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Post by auraco on Mar 22, 2020 1:16:53 GMT
If you're buying into the faction I wouldn't recommend buys them new, if you get some used in a lot maybe. Unstable is... bad, and they still suffer the problem of khador jacks, so being spd 4 with only 1'' of melee range. They need spd buff as much as our other jacks, and we only have so many spd buff to throw around. Having boundless on a caster is not enough to make them work, it's way too expansive as far as focus investment.
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Post by michael on Mar 22, 2020 2:04:53 GMT
I hate saying that models are bad, but...yeah, the Berserker chassis (including the character warjack Drago) are bad.
Unstable is an awful rule. Boosting is the core mechanic of the game, and Unstable actively penalizes the player for boosting but does not remotely compensate the player for it.
Theoretically, the lousy DEF, ARM, damage grid, and Unstable are the balancing factors for the low point cost. But...Why bother?
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Post by sand20go on Mar 22, 2020 4:37:27 GMT
Dont do it as a reason to buy in
I do think vlad1 and 10 beserkers has possibilites that the meta hasn't really explored.
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Post by gobber on Mar 22, 2020 6:01:37 GMT
They're definitely not good enough to be worth running out to buy en masse, but I've had decent experiences with a lone berserker if I'm trying to squeeze in a few more points, for example running marauder/marauder/berserker as a 30pt kozlov battlegroup
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Post by MacGuffin on Mar 22, 2020 6:43:43 GMT
Dont do it as a reason to buy in I do think vlad1 and 10 beserkers has possibilites that the meta hasn't really explored. I like the cut of your jib! Speaking from inexperience, it seems that the berserker is tailor-made to benefit from battlegroup spells/feats/etc, which in turn suggests that spamming is better than not spamming. But I also respect and appreciate everyone’s informed opinion on the matter. Thank you.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 22, 2020 6:55:42 GMT
Reading comments elsewhere, it seems that Khador players think that the berserker is a bad warjack. Is this really true? It seems like it might work well with Butcher1, Vlad1, and OW2, no? Asking because I’d like to buy into the faction, and a gaggle of berserkers seems like a fun idea. It's a warjack with almost the same stats as most factions' heavies, for less points than some lights! It's amazing value! ... if you want a melee jack that isn't going to spend more than one focus. Which is... highly situational at best. I think you can get value out of them, but you need to work harder than you should have to. There's other 8 point options these days, what with all the archons running around and whatnot. Berserkers are from a time when focus was really hard to come by for us; they use to charge for free for example. The transition to MK left them in a strange place. PP has tried tweaking them, but only to avoid letting them be too over or underpowered, it hasn't really found a niche for them. Personally I think they are a good pick for a marshalled jack if you're bringing a forgeseer anyway, or as the "Sorscha0 tax". Give them free charges and one focus and they'll do more work than a light of the same cost. Or use a forgeseer to give them Crush and one focus and suddenly they're doing as much work as say an Ironclad - more if you can arrange a free charge as well. And of course that's blessed and magical damage. I guess it's just hard to find place for them in competitive lists these days. I say buy just one and have fun with it; loading it up and sending it in with a 50% chance of blowing up is fun in casual games. I like them with Strakhov: MAT 8 Berserker with an Overrun to relocate and start Berserking again, or Overrunning into some support models and blowing up, is fun when it works (but unreliable and resource-intensive and therefore not competitive). That's just the Berserker; I haven't tried the Mad Dog or Rager yet, but on paper they seem to have more specific roles (infantry killing and shield guarding), which sounds good but then I think there's just better or cheaper options in those roles. I do think the Mad Dog has the longest melee threat range for a Khador jack (barring Scrapjack I guess?), so that's something?
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Post by michael on Mar 22, 2020 13:46:41 GMT
The opportunity cost is a very real thing post-Oblivion.
Archons are just flat-out superior in every meaningful way.
For about 11 years I was the “every model has its use” guy. I was championing Kossites in 2010, and IFP in 2014 (when this faction was deep in the throes of “WGI Death Star + Iron Flesh), Demolishers in 2016, and so on.
But, honestly, the December 2016 changes irretrievably gutted the models, and the March 2018 CID didn’t remotely come close to making reparations.
I want to be able to suggest Berserkers. I own seven or eight of them. But honestly, their in-game performance just is worthless compared to almost every other option we have. The only time I’d even consider a Berserker is if I have a super awesome list and have exactly 8 or 9 WJ points left to spend.... and even then I’d try really hard to juggle a few points somewhere and upgrade to a Marauder.
It’s bad for the same reason Butcher2 is bad: the rules screw with one of the core, crucial game mechanics for the model but does not compensate the player for it at all.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Mar 23, 2020 13:46:27 GMT
Archons and Battle engines fundamentally work against the game's core design too imo. The whole point of focus/fury is that your big dudes cost resources to run. Sure infantry can hit hard, but they're tied to their own mechanics and die to a stiff breeze. Archs/BEs require zero investment to run at full capacity.
Zerkers are also a bit too slow for them to serve as kamikaze models. The threat range is short, predictable, and you cap at a 50/50 if it'll even explode. You get a gotcha moment at best.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 23, 2020 18:17:33 GMT
Archons and Battle engines fundamentally work against the game's core design too imo. The whole point of focus/fury is that your big dudes cost resources to run. Sure infantry can hit hard, but they're tied to their own mechanics and die to a stiff breeze. Archs/BEs require zero investment to run at full capacity. Zerkers are also a bit too slow for them to serve as kamikaze models. The threat range is short, predictable, and you cap at a 50/50 if it'll even explode. You get a gotcha moment at best. But I am going to be contrian (slightly). conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-1m76kRkRkRkRkRkRkRkRkRkRkTdHhFhFlOkZKhador [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Vladimir 1] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Prince [+28] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Marauder [11] Gobber Tinker [2] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [0(4)] - Rager [10] Run your Zerkers forward turn 1. S0 casts Fog of war and charges. Rager positions to be able to shield guard her if need be. Her job is to try to make as many Zerkers as she can DEF 13 so they don't take TOO much chip damage. Turn 2 (likely) Vlad moves up and casts signs and portants and feats. Allocates as need be (see below) Where need be Forge Seers hand off focus. Sorsha BC's what needs to be boundless. 2 zerkers (or so) zerkers then go off and try to kill things deep. 3 inches from a large base is a GOOD circle if they blow up.. Clear lanes for deeper (the ones you BC'ed) to get further deep. Vlad hangs on for dear life and tries not to die. I am NOT sure it is perfect but I also think it could work. I am pretty sure it hasn't gotten a good test in the current meta. I currently own 3 beserkers so I am not in a great place to try this. I MAY try a variant around ragers, Mad dogs and Mauraders since I do own enough. Probably a fun game once the pandemic is over ;-(
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Post by michael on Mar 23, 2020 18:59:11 GMT
Archons and Battle engines fundamentally work against the game's core design too imo. The whole point of focus/fury is that your big dudes cost resources to run. Sure infantry can hit hard, but they're tied to their own mechanics and die to a stiff breeze. Archs/BEs require zero investment to run at full capacity. Zerkers are also a bit too slow for them to serve as kamikaze models. The threat range is short, predictable, and you cap at a 50/50 if it'll even explode. You get a gotcha moment at best. But I am going to be contrian (slightly). conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-1m76kRkRkRkRkRkRkRkRkRkRkTdHhFhFlOkZKhador [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Vladimir 1] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Prince [+28] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Marauder [11] Gobber Tinker [2] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [0(4)] - Rager [10] Run your Zerkers forward turn 1. S0 casts Fog of war and charges. Rager positions to be able to shield guard her if need be. Her job is to try to make as many Zerkers as she can DEF 13 so they don't take TOO much chip damage. Turn 2 (likely) Vlad moves up and casts signs and portants and feats. Allocates as need be (see below) Where need be Forge Seers hand off focus. Sorsha BC's what needs to be boundless. 2 zerkers (or so) zerkers then go off and try to kill things deep. 3 inches from a large base is a GOOD circle if they blow up.. Clear lanes for deeper (the ones you BC'ed) to get further deep. Vlad hangs on for dear life and tries not to die. I am NOT sure it is perfect but I also think it could work. I am pretty sure it hasn't gotten a good test in the current meta. I currently own 3 beserkers so I am not in a great place to try this. I MAY try a variant around ragers, Mad dogs and Mauraders since I do own enough. Probably a fun game once the pandemic is over ;-( Enjoy being unable to score half the zones in Steamroller! ...and getting shot to death by even marginally competent shooting lists. ...and getting out-melee’d by just about any melee list. ... and Disruption, Knockdown, etc., etc.... I have played Berserker spam with Vlad1 to know enough to say “This is cute on paper but a POS in practice.”
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 24, 2020 7:45:19 GMT
How about just four Berserkers to use up Vlad1's points in a WG shooty list?
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Mar 24, 2020 8:55:25 GMT
How about just four Berserkers to use up Vlad1's points in a WG shooty list? you'd probably be better served with the Marauder's armor cracking. that's one of WG's weaknesses, innit?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 24, 2020 9:01:15 GMT
Good point I guess.
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