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Post by wasted79 on Sept 17, 2020 12:02:36 GMT
I just want to add some perspective.
At 8pts, Berserker should been compared to other factions LIGHT warjacks, not Heavies.
Even Protectorate of Menoth (that boast a few of the cheapest Warjacks in the game), the cheapest Heavy is 10pts and they only got one Light at 7 pts but 2-3 models at 8 pts. (and the one that shot 3 AOE at 13pts for a light)
So, Berserker at Arm 18 and 7 cases less than regular Heavies are still very tough for their price.
Ok they're SPD4 and explode when using more than 1 focus at the time. But they're Arm 18 instead of 16 and they got Pow 16 instead of Light average of 13
I always seen them as such, Khador cannot afford to get Light Warjacks, we got lighter(crappier?) Heavies instead.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 0:49:35 GMT
I just want to add some perspective. At 8pts, Berserker should been compared to other factions LIGHT warjacks, not Heavies. [ I agree. They pretty much are our lights and that was Pagani's intent during the Korps CID.
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Post by michael on Sept 18, 2020 1:55:35 GMT
Yes, Berserkers are supposed to be light warjacks.
But look at every other light warjack in the game. They have specialist rules and roles to fill: specialist ranged (sprays, debuffs, elemental attacks, etc.) sniper, arc node, melee assassin, whatever.
The Berserker and Mad Dog do not fill any roles. "Cheap, bad fighters that are actively penalized for using a core game mechanic"? The Rager has Shield Guard, but, like...for 10 points and poor combat ability, no thank you.
Sigh. I give. I want to be upset that so many models in the Trollbloods CID are just...beyond good, ridiculous good, like seemingly designed to counter basically every theme we can field good, but I yield. There is no point in being upset that another faction got something cool. I want to be mad that the Trollkin Gunnery Sergeant seems like a huge middle finger to the WG Artillery Kapitan, like that dude dialed to 11 + 3, but I'm spent.
I'm tired of being upset about toys, and being disappointed with the faction I chose, and cursed with the long, long memory of the way things used to be.
I can't remember the last time I really, really had fun with this game. My last memorable Unbound game in 2017? The six glorious months between MK III's release and the brutal December 2016 nerf? A few minutes of joy here and there when I thought we had a shot at making MoW beyond awesome, or dared hope that the dialed-to-11 Greylords during week 2 of the Wolves CID would come to pass?
Hmm.
That's probably a bad sign.
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Post by Havock on Sept 18, 2020 3:36:21 GMT
You're all forgetting an important fact about khador. PP hates our jacks. 😆 Don't compare it to other jacks in the game. Compare it to what is within our stable and in a game where the standard format is about trading, Berserkers and Marauders are the best we have as everything else is simply too expensive.
Specifically, we are penalized for our "HARD STATS!!1!"
Because there is still thisever present idea or something that if you are not careful, tables will get swamped by 12 point juggernauts or the like. The old Mad Dog nerf showed an issue they... Didn't really do much with.
You can only make a (heavy) warjack so cheap before it just becomes worth it even if it does nothing by virtue of requiring a lot of investment to take out. On the flipside, stats only do so much unless they are really high.
Conclusion: There is too little difference between our berserkers and our marauders point wise, and neither can really budge one way or the other.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 4:51:44 GMT
Well, just learn to work with wot ye got.
I've stopped buying Khador jacks and am currently retrofitting a couple Binkistators into more useful jacks (working on a really fat Rager). They seem to be done nerfing Berserkers so it seems like a safe chassis to use.
I still love the aesthetics of Khador and will still play them for Brawlmachine and fun games, but if I really want hard hitters that can reliably deliver axe to face I'm sticking to my Minions. 😊
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sorokin
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Post by sorokin on Sept 18, 2020 7:58:29 GMT
If you compare a berserker to other 8 point lights they have to go up against Fireflys and Stalkers, both of which have the same points cost. You cannot in honesty argue that the berserker comes out on top against those two. Even worse there are lights that are cheaper than 8 points which are better, like Raeks, Talons, or Dervishes. Heck even lessers are better than a Berserker. ARM 18, P+S 16 ceases to matter on a "light" when it's SPD 4 and blows up when it tries to do it's job.
The berserker only has one role to fulfill: "Smash thing for cheap" in a faction that already has the "smash thing" area covered. And "cheap" is relativised by "cannot use focus or will blow up". 8 points that blow up, are still 8 points lost.
Sure you'll have those few instances where the opponent fed you 8 points of infantry to berserk through and then it explodes and kills an additional 5 points somewhere. But you cannot reliably reproduce that scenario because the chance to explode is only 50 % and savvy opponents will just space their infantry far enough apart from each other to not let you berserk.
If you want a cheap P+S 16 just use the Marauder, it's only 3 points more. You can afford 3 points for a jack this good, trust me. 3 Marauders are better than 4 berserkers.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 18, 2020 14:56:05 GMT
SPD5 and DEF12 or 13 would have really helped the berserker chassis. I'd let the rager shield guard twice a turn too. The berserker basically needs Zuriel's MKII animus I think! Mad dog I don't know.
Maybe if you had the double shield guard rager, then counterslam on maybe the mad dog (and let it add it's weapon POW to slams) and some other disruption effect like countercharge on the berserker? Then they become disrupting "lights" but with more boxes and limited focus spend.
Don't know, just throwing ideas out there!
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Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 18, 2020 15:21:41 GMT
I still find the Berserker fun for casual games, thanks to that element of randomness. Also I like that it's super cheap so I can take it and do stupid or overly aggressive stuff with it without feeling like I'm throwing the whole game.
Personally I would love it if the Berserker went back to something like MkII rules, when it could run or charge for free. That at least mean it had a degree of independence from the warcaster, and made it a good jack for marshaling.
Let's say the Berserker gains Aggressive but loses the ability to get Power Up focus, and then goes back "roll to explode if you spend focus" rather than "roll to explode if you spend more than 1 focus". Then it would be good for marshaling, and also would have the advantage of being able to get loaded up with focus and still charge for free, offsetting it's poor stats slightly. Or just charge and spend one or two more focus for the same caster investment but less risk of exploding compared to how it is now. It wouldn't "fix" it, but it would be a nice way of giving it a bit of a bump without just raising the stats or something.
Would the Rager be fine at 8 points? I think that's in line with other shield-guard warjacks. Of course shield-guards are a lot cheaper these days than they used to be, so maybe 8-point shield-guard jacks don't see play right now anyway?
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
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Post by shmeep on Sept 18, 2020 16:14:03 GMT
I still find the Berserker fun for casual games, thanks to that element of randomness. Also I like that it's super cheap so I can take it and do stupid or overly aggressive stuff with it without feeling like I'm throwing the whole game. Personally I would love it if the Berserker went back to something like MkII rules, when it could run or charge for free. That at least mean it had a degree of independence from the warcaster, and made it a good jack for marshaling. Let's say the Berserker gains Aggressive but loses the ability to get Power Up focus, and then goes back "roll to explode if you spend focus" rather than "roll to explode if you spend more than 1 focus". Then it would be good for marshaling, and also would have the advantage of being able to get loaded up with focus and still charge for free, offsetting it's poor stats slightly. Or just charge and spend one or two more focus for the same caster investment but less risk of exploding compared to how it is now. It wouldn't "fix" it, but it would be a nice way of giving it a bit of a bump without just raising the stats or something. Would the Rager be fine at 8 points? I think that's in line with other shield-guard warjacks. Of course shield-guards are a lot cheaper these days than they used to be, so maybe 8-point shield-guard jacks don't see play right now anyway? You can compare the Rager to the Vanguard. Apparently it sees use big time in CG, where it gets double shield guard. For the same price you're getting a similar defensive profile (-1 ARM, +2 DEF), Set Defense (another +2 DEF for 15 vs charges) a better threat range (+2 SPD, -0.5 on the shield but +1 on the spear), better accuracy (6/6 VS 6/4). Worse power (-3 POW on the gun, but what the Firetruck can unboosted RAT 4 hit?, -1 POW on the shield and -2 POW on the spear), and again, most crucially, double shield guard and no Unstable. Still, feel like the advantages the Rager has are a bit of a moot point with Unstable and effectively -3' threat range.
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Post by anderfreak on Sept 18, 2020 17:30:25 GMT
Give the berserker an additional initial attack.
Give the mad dog SPD 5.
Give the rager D3 shots and/or an AOE.
Give them all gang fighter.
Makes them perform their combat roles marginally better and incentivizes comboing with warrior models rather than excessive jack spam.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 18, 2020 18:53:36 GMT
what the Firetruck can unboosted RAT 4 hit? Not a very favourable comparison. But why aren't you boosting your single ranged attack roll?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 19:58:24 GMT
I've had pretty good success with the Rager, who's actually blown up more often than my Berserker has.
Quite like the plucky little fella.
As Soul said, the cheap cost encourages ye to do stupid things with the chassis and you'd be surprised how often opponents overlook the seemingly harmless Rager until ye slap Fury on it and the look on their faces as it wails on them before finishing their caster off with a teeth rattling explosion is nothing short of priceless! 😆
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 20:01:44 GMT
Give them all gang fighter. Makes them perform their combat roles marginally better and incentivizes comboing with warrior models rather than excessive jack spam. Or just take them with Sorscha3 and a War Dog.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 20:07:51 GMT
Heeee Jack go BOOM!!!
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Post by anderfreak on Sept 19, 2020 5:56:21 GMT
Give them all gang fighter. Makes them perform their combat roles marginally better and incentivizes comboing with warrior models rather than excessive jack spam. Or just take them with Sorscha3 and a War Dog. The problem is that Sorscha3, or any caster specific solution in khador really, buffs the actual good jacks too. They need a rule that gives them something the better jacks can't access otherwise there's no reason to not just pay the extra points to maximize output.
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