Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571 
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Post by Choco on Mar 1, 2018 18:33:06 GMT
I think we should wait on this for the CID to start. If it is actually starting next week, we can get a better picture of the entire faction and see if there are other options to assist him in surviving on the turns he doesn't use his super stealth. In my meta, so far the only parts that have stood out on him are the Super Stealth and the free purification. If the free spell was limited to spells costing 3 or less, then I would have zero problems with him having purification. Outside of that, he's a pure support caster that needs to stay back. He reminds me of a combination of Issyria and Severius1. A smaller control area so he can't hang back as far, but lots of support options. He's not a spell assassination caster and he has very limited personal threat. I want to get him on the table before I really get into what his abilities really do to make him this oppressive on paper.
I personally think that Baldwin will be lots more fun and more of an oppressive caster with his guns. But again, when we get the faction for CID, we will see what really happens.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Mar 1, 2018 22:16:11 GMT
Haight I'm pretty sure the reason it's not Stealth is so that things that ignore Stealth won't ignore it; it's Super Stealth just by nature of not being called Stealth. I do like him, but that's just dumb. He should just gain Stealth. |
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Post by Azuresun on Mar 1, 2018 23:36:24 GMT
He seems a bit too much of the personal defense and support package total package. He can mitigate low def, or high def. He can help mitigate high PS or low PS (both of these examples as buff or debuff - and can be cycled - perhaps even 1 time for free!). He can mitigate melee threat range (admonition), upkeeps (purify) ranged and magic assassination (Haze), battlegroup speed, he can fix accuracy and damage and repair damage with the feat. Again, if you just compare him with the other two CG warcasters we know about, the sheer amount of answers this guy has make him an auto-include over them so far. Purification is an instant skew in itself that makes a big chunk of warcasters and warlocks (and beasts) non-viable against him. |
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Post by killroundears on Mar 2, 2018 6:48:43 GMT
Im greatly disinterested by general warmachine balance discussions these days because they tend to go:
Nonfaction player - this is OP
Faction player - Its fine because xyz
Then these roles immediately flip the moment the other faction is being looked at.
I will say from my perspective id like to keep his general rule set, test him very heavily and slowly walk him back if hes too good. Theres loads of changes that can be implemented without even changing his super stealth.
But i heavily expect this CID to be as discordant as previous ones
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Post by dazzla on Mar 2, 2018 6:55:48 GMT
Will all of the crucible guard have fire immunity? It seems the two spoiled in this thread do.
As a Menoth player, having an entire faction (even a limited faction) receive fire immunity would be more than I could stand.
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Post by killroundears on Mar 2, 2018 7:17:01 GMT
Will all of the crucible guard have fire immunity? It seems the two spoiled in this thread do. As a Menoth player, having an entire faction (even a limited faction) receive fire immunity would be more than I could stand. Not the entire faction, but a pretty big section of it. i believe its mostly the guys with breathers and suits + one of their jacks. i play menoth pretty heavily and i think its only a problem if your 2 list pair is "Feora + Malekus". Granted, they remove the feat of my favourite caster (Harby), but i think protectorate has game even if theres fire immunity around. I don't actually use many protectorate models that have typed fire weapons. Some cont, or critical cont, but not many full typed (i don't use the castigator though). since cont or critical cont will still kill the model, just not apply the continous effect that'll be fine i think after the exemplar CID there will be zero concerns as well since exemplars have a lot of magic and blessed but very little in the way of typed weapons so them being buffed will be another big benefit against fire immune armies |
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Post by correlion on Mar 2, 2018 8:12:31 GMT
Also almost all Legion warbeasts have fire shootin. Next horde mini-faction should have a lot of lightning immune models)
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Post by dazzla on Mar 2, 2018 9:22:53 GMT
Will all of the crucible guard have fire immunity? It seems the two spoiled in this thread do. As a Menoth player, having an entire faction (even a limited faction) receive fire immunity would be more than I could stand. Not the entire faction, but a pretty big section of it. i believe its mostly the guys with breathers and suits + one of their jacks. i play menoth pretty heavily and i think its only a problem if your 2 list pair is "Feora + Malekus". Granted, they remove the feat of my favourite caster (Harby), but i think protectorate has game even if theres fire immunity around. I don't actually use many protectorate models that have typed fire weapons. Some cont, or critical cont, but not many full typed (i don't use the castigator though). since cont or critical cont will still kill the model, just not apply the continous effect that'll be fine i think after the exemplar CID there will be zero concerns as well since exemplars have a lot of magic and blessed but very little in the way of typed weapons so them being buffed will be another big benefit against fire immune armies I play casually and generally we do not take 2 lists. I also hate the idea of specifically having to tech against a largely fire immune army (even though we have to do that against some opponents already). It greatly reduces the options even in a two list format as in general the list against fire immune armies will be very sub optimal. I believe all Menoth jack ranged attacks are damage type fire, with the exception of some of the Judicators attacks. On my count, nine of the jacks also have fire based melee affects. On my count, only 2 Menoth casters do not use fire in some form in spells, ranged attacks, feats etc. So fire immunity is a big deal in terms of impact on game play and tactics (I do not even care whether I can still win or not - it is the loss of game play and ability to use options that I object to). Some other factions may also be affected. If my opponent is largely fire immune it significantly reduces my options for tactics and gameplay. It reduces to a game that is different to the one I want to play without any strategy (other than list) on the part of my opponent. It significantly reduces the play value of models that cost a lot, both in terms of points and dollars. The revelator costs over $130 in Australia. And I would be hesitant to take it in case of a match up where it would be reduced to being a slow melee model. Bottom line, if the Crucible Guard are largely fire immune then I will be spending my hobby dollars elsewhere in future. Why would I invest in a game where my list can be hard countered by a rule like immunity? Note, I do not mind if one or two models/units in the opposing army have an immunity. But if it is the bulk of the army (my opponents or my own) then that represents a type of game I have no interest in playing. Edit: Apologies but I made a mistake - as is pointed out below, the Redeemer jack also has non-fire typed ranged attacks. |
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Post by Trollock on Mar 2, 2018 9:38:27 GMT
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Post by Azuresun on Mar 2, 2018 9:45:50 GMT
Im greatly disinterested by general warmachine balance discussions these days because they tend to go: Nonfaction player - this is OP Faction player - Its fine because xyz Then these roles immediately flip the moment the other faction is being looked at. I agree in general, CID has taught me that absolutely nobody in the community can be trusted to balance their own factions. But this should hopefully be different, because it's a faction nobody has an investment in yet beyond "Hey, this looks cool." |
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Post by jisidro on Mar 2, 2018 9:46:19 GMT
The solution is elementary my dear Jeremy Brett, you just wait for CID which starts next monday (or the 7th, not sure) before making your move. |
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Post by killroundears on Mar 2, 2018 9:56:53 GMT
Not the entire faction, but a pretty big section of it. i believe its mostly the guys with breathers and suits + one of their jacks. i play menoth pretty heavily and i think its only a problem if your 2 list pair is "Feora + Malekus". Granted, they remove the feat of my favourite caster (Harby), but i think protectorate has game even if theres fire immunity around. I don't actually use many protectorate models that have typed fire weapons. Some cont, or critical cont, but not many full typed (i don't use the castigator though). since cont or critical cont will still kill the model, just not apply the continous effect that'll be fine i think after the exemplar CID there will be zero concerns as well since exemplars have a lot of magic and blessed but very little in the way of typed weapons so them being buffed will be another big benefit against fire immune armies I play casually and generally we do not take 2 lists. I also hate the idea of specifically having to tech against a largely fire immune army (even though we have to do that against some opponents already). It greatly reduces the options even in a two list format as in general the list against fire immune armies will be very sub optimal. I believe all Menoth jack ranged attacks are damage type fire, with the exception of some of the Judicators attacks. On my count, nine of the jacks also have fire based melee affects. On my count, only 2 Menoth casters do not use fire in some form in spells, ranged attacks, feats etc. So fire immunity is a big deal in terms of impact on game play and tactics (I do not even care whether I can still win or not - it is the loss of game play and ability to use options that I object to). Some other factions may also be affected. If my opponent is largely fire immune it significantly reduces my options for tactics and gameplay. It reduces to a game that is different to the one I want to play without any strategy (other than list) on the part of my opponent. It significantly reduces the play value of models that cost a lot, both in terms of points and dollars. The revelator costs over $130 in Australia. And I would be hesitant to take it in case of a match up where it would be reduced to being a slow melee model. Bottom line, if the Crucible Guard are largely fire immune then I will be spending my hobby dollars elsewhere in future. Why would I invest in a game where my list can be hard countered by a rule like immunity? Note, I do not mind if one or two models/units in the opposing army have an immunity. But if it is the bulk of the army (my opponents or my own) then that represents a type of game I have no interest in playing. you're clearly skewing the data when you say "9 jacks have fire based melee attacks" - as Continous effects do not count. Unless you think the troops are going to survive and require specifically a pow 12, 66% of the time, to kill. Castigator - Cont fire Crusader - Critical cont fire Eye of Truth - Cont fire Fire of Salv - Cont fire hand of judgement - Cont fire Purifier - cont fire cirtical Reckoner - critical cont fire Scourge - cont fire i dont know what your 9th was, but i only did a very quick sweep. Now, if any crucible guard model, even the medium based ones survive say, a pow 18 from hand of judgement's flame of truth, the fact it has a critical effect doesn't matter that much. Also - outside of the 1 jack we know of, CGs BEs and jacks are not fire immune. so you always have at least something to shoot with your heavy guns. So, i seriously don't see the problem, and would suggest you diversify your collection if one faction being fire immune could wreck your Protectorate experience. i say this as a protectorate player. (Also, this immunity situation is nothing like say, Nemo vs Krueger, this is much more balanced) |
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Post by dazzla on Mar 2, 2018 10:27:01 GMT
I play casually and generally we do not take 2 lists. I also hate the idea of specifically having to tech against a largely fire immune army (even though we have to do that against some opponents already). It greatly reduces the options even in a two list format as in general the list against fire immune armies will be very sub optimal. I believe all Menoth jack ranged attacks are damage type fire, with the exception of some of the Judicators attacks. On my count, nine of the jacks also have fire based melee affects. On my count, only 2 Menoth casters do not use fire in some form in spells, ranged attacks, feats etc. So fire immunity is a big deal in terms of impact on game play and tactics (I do not even care whether I can still win or not - it is the loss of game play and ability to use options that I object to). Some other factions may also be affected. If my opponent is largely fire immune it significantly reduces my options for tactics and gameplay. It reduces to a game that is different to the one I want to play without any strategy (other than list) on the part of my opponent. It significantly reduces the play value of models that cost a lot, both in terms of points and dollars. The revelator costs over $130 in Australia. And I would be hesitant to take it in case of a match up where it would be reduced to being a slow melee model. Bottom line, if the Crucible Guard are largely fire immune then I will be spending my hobby dollars elsewhere in future. Why would I invest in a game where my list can be hard countered by a rule like immunity? Note, I do not mind if one or two models/units in the opposing army have an immunity. But if it is the bulk of the army (my opponents or my own) then that represents a type of game I have no interest in playing. you're clearly skewing the data when you say "9 jacks have fire based melee attacks" - as Continous effects do not count. Unless you think the troops are going to survive and require specifically a pow 12, 66% of the time, to kill. Castigator - Cont fire Crusader - Critical cont fire Eye of Truth - Cont fire Fire of Salv - Cont fire hand of judgement - Cont fire Purifier - cont fire cirtical Reckoner - critical cont fire Scourge - cont fire i dont know what your 9th was, but i only did a very quick sweep. Now, if any crucible guard model, even the medium based ones survive say, a pow 18 from hand of judgement's flame of truth, the fact it has a critical effect doesn't matter that much. Also - outside of the 1 jack we know of, CGs BEs and jacks are not fire immune. so you always have at least something to shoot with your heavy guns. So, i seriously don't see the problem, and would suggest you diversify your collection if one faction being fire immune could wreck your Protectorate experience. i say this as a protectorate player. (Also, this immunity situation is nothing like say, Nemo vs Krueger, this is much more balanced) Hi, the 9th is the Avatar, with Flameburst. I said melee based affects - I understand they are not attacks. I basically dislike the immunity rule as is. But yes, one faction being largely fire immune would be very different to how I believe the game should work and play, even with a large and diversified collection. That is a personal view and I accept others will have a different view. BEs and some of the jacks may not be a lot of targets in some lists and of course it affects many other aspects of Menoth play (feats, defensive tech such as Ashen veil, etc). I could spend hobby dollars on diversifying into other factions, but then they might then be affected by some other hard counter in the future (who knows?). Or I could diversify into another game system. For me the choice would be very clear. But perhaps I am getting ahead of myself, the models have not been fully revealed. Most likely PP will reveal a well balanced limited faction that will be fun to play against and not characterised by widespread immunity:) |
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Post by correlion on Mar 2, 2018 11:03:21 GMT
PoM also have Redeemer and VoJ with non-fire ranged attacks.But it will also affect half of our casters. Aaand CG caster has free purification vs our buff-heavy faction.
But we need to check other things like:
1. availability of magic weapons
2. pathfinder, flight, etc
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Post by killroundears on Mar 2, 2018 13:12:59 GMT
you're clearly skewing the data when you say "9 jacks have fire based melee attacks" - as Continous effects do not count. Unless you think the troops are going to survive and require specifically a pow 12, 66% of the time, to kill. Castigator - Cont fire Crusader - Critical cont fire Eye of Truth - Cont fire Fire of Salv - Cont fire hand of judgement - Cont fire Purifier - cont fire cirtical Reckoner - critical cont fire Scourge - cont fire i dont know what your 9th was, but i only did a very quick sweep. Now, if any crucible guard model, even the medium based ones survive say, a pow 18 from hand of judgement's flame of truth, the fact it has a critical effect doesn't matter that much. Also - outside of the 1 jack we know of, CGs BEs and jacks are not fire immune. so you always have at least something to shoot with your heavy guns. So, i seriously don't see the problem, and would suggest you diversify your collection if one faction being fire immune could wreck your Protectorate experience. i say this as a protectorate player. (Also, this immunity situation is nothing like say, Nemo vs Krueger, this is much more balanced) Hi, the 9th is the Avatar, with Flameburst. I said melee based affects - I understand they are not attacks. I basically dislike the immunity rule as is. But yes, one faction being largely fire immune would be very different to how I believe the game should work and play, even with a large and diversified collection. That is a personal view and I accept others will have a different view. BEs and some of the jacks may not be a lot of targets in some lists and of course it affects many other aspects of Menoth play (feats, defensive tech such as Ashen veil, etc). I could spend hobby dollars on diversifying into other factions, but then they might then be affected by some other hard counter in the future (who knows?). Or I could diversify into another game system. For me the choice would be very clear. But perhaps I am getting ahead of myself, the models have not been fully revealed. Most likely PP will reveal a well balanced limited faction that will be fun to play against and not characterised by widespread immunity:) But as i pointed out, they have already shown that the tougher models are generally not immune (ie - the battle engine and most of the non-suppressor jacks). This is generally where menoth ranged firepower can go and not be wasted. As for melee effects, its just applying cont fire. Which... is useless. The low arm troops arent surviving the swing in the first place. I'd also point out that not 100% of their infantry is fire immune either, Rocketmen are certainly not. your point is that crucible guard is some kind of menoth hard counter because the faction crutches heavily on fire. my point as a protectorate player is thats ridiculous. PoM barely uses any typed fire outside of very specific models and lists. Its also what having a 2 list pair is for, like it or not. |
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