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Post by gobber on Mar 2, 2018 19:50:53 GMT
The only model(s) that stand out for me currently is Syvestro. His super stealth *might* be an issue if the rest of the faction does have an easy means to protect him (like a cloud wall) and the free purification (this has a simple solution, limit it to spells costing 3 or less). The alchemist unit will have clouds fyi. Also, moar spoilers!  That alchemical gun is really interesting; it's only on the left arc and the alchemical tanks can be shot out... Also, rust arm debuff affecting friendlies. Huh. Given the recent pages of immunity discussion I'm anticipating lively debate on this.  While Prospero has to bring a jack (and we don't yet know if there'll be any lights cheaper than 10pts) so has a hefty opportunity cost, note that instability can also target your warcaster's battlegroup. Also I love the fluff idea of vet leader [jacks] for what's presumably the pinnacle of non-COC cortex research. Not sure he needs FM:dispel on top of all that |
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571 
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Post by Choco on Mar 2, 2018 20:05:08 GMT
The only model(s) that stand out for me currently is Syvestro. His super stealth *might* be an issue if the rest of the faction does have an easy means to protect him (like a cloud wall) and the free purification (this has a simple solution, limit it to spells costing 3 or less). The alchemist unit will have clouds fyi. Also, moar spoilers! Yep, just saw those. Prospero looks so entertaining and the colossal looks really solid. |
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Post by W0lfBane on Mar 2, 2018 20:24:29 GMT
*incoherent childish screeching intensifies*
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Post by killroundears on Mar 2, 2018 20:30:54 GMT
Im greatly disinterested by general warmachine balance discussions these days because they tend to go: Nonfaction player - this is OP Faction player - Its fine because xyz Then these roles immediately flip the moment the other faction is being looked at. I will say from my perspective id like to keep his general rule set, test him very heavily and slowly walk him back if hes too good. Theres loads of changes that can be implemented without even changing his super stealth. But i heavily expect this CID to be as discordant as previous ones I disagree, I intend to play crucible, and I'm calling for sylvestros toning down. Many people are ethical w ith this sort of thing. When I played cygnar in mk3, I openly called for edit: stormlances to lose a point of def and leaps on guns. Not everyone is a cynical opportunist. Just because one or two people won't do it doesn't mean the attitude doesn't dominate CID. i appreciate that you or any random individual wont, but it can't be denied that this is the culture that the CID has encouraged. i expect sylvestro to be walked back, and i'll take part in testing him too. Hes got just one too many answers on top of being essentially immortal. im fine with a caster being immortal (see: the other very difficult to kill casters of the game like Thyron, or Vlad1), but when his kit has answers to every meta boogeyman from incorp to recursion to just saying screw you to upkeeps, i can see that being too good by far EDIT: Good luck protectorate forum, after seeing that thing can strip immunities |
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Post by Azuresun on Mar 2, 2018 21:51:01 GMT
I'm going to be "That Guy" for a second. I love how so many people are all doom and gloom without even playing a game with or against them. These are all models that are in development and as far as we know, PP has been testing these models for a few years and feel that these immunities are not game breaking. When we finally get the entire picture when the CID does drop, we will then have a better chance to claim DOOM and be all gloomy, or we can actually put the models on the table and see if this really is that big of an issue. I'm very optimistic about the results as we know they are not introducing anything new and we know they are a debuff faction. That's hyperbolic, and doesn't do anything but lower the tone. Blanket dismissals of all concerns as "doom and gloom" is simply unhelpful. I hope everything is mostly fine out the gate, Sylvestro isn't as OP as I'm worried about, and CG end up a cool faction with some good stuff and a unique and fun playstyle. But we need to be sceptical, and we need to be looking out for things that break the game (remember, Una2 came out of internal playtesting with nobody spotting any problems), dud options, degenerate combos and things that choke out variety in both the faction and the wider game. I agree, final conclusions should be reserved for table time, but we can theorise until then. Your theory is that there's not yet anything to be worried about, other people theorise that some things are concerning, and nobody has yet been proven right. |
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Mar 5, 2018 15:09:09 GMT
i expect sylvestro to be walked back, and i'll take part in testing him too. Hes got just one too many answers on top of being essentially immortal. im fine with a caster being immortal (see: the other very difficult to kill casters of the game like Thyron, or Vlad1), but when his kit has answers to every meta boogeyman from incorp to recursion to just saying screw you to upkeeps, i can see that being too good by far This is a completely different thing though. The "Immortal" casters are ones that are super tough (Thyron with Storm Rager, Vlad1 with Blood of Kings/Wind Wall). He is in no way tough, his defensive stats are...enh and are not boostable like either of your examples. He has admonition and S. Stealth. I don't think the game should have only casters that are difficult to kill because big numbers. Wurmwood is good for the game. Syvestro as written would be good for the game. His whole gameplan is "We're going to see which one of us can win on scenario/attrition. You remember that those are in fact win conditions, yes?" Too many people rely on and too many games come down to assassination runs, and I don't think that was ever intended to be option 1, option 2, and option 5. Syvestro (clunky wording aside) is showing through design decisions that PP wants to bring that notion back into the game, either with a meta shifting caster, or with an entire meta shifting faction which is much more focused on attrition. |
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juckto
Junior Strategist
Posts: 124
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Post by juckto on Mar 5, 2018 16:56:46 GMT
Primal pg 17 - Stealth – Ranged and magic attacks targeting this model from a point of origin (p. 40) greater than 5˝ away automatically miss. This model is not an intervening model (p. 36) when determining line of sight from a model more than 5˝ away.CG spoiler: "Impenetrable Haze- ... While this model is completely in the AOE, ranged and magic attacks targeting this model from a point of origin greater than 5˝ away automatically miss. This model is not an intervening model when determining line of sight from a model more than 5˝ away." It's the stealth rule without calling it out. It's poorly done. I agree. It may as well be rewritten as "Impenetrable Haze- ... While this model is completely in the AOE, this model gains Stealth. Stealth gained via Impenetrable Haze cannot be ignored." and it becomes even more evident how much of a sloppy rule it is. |
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 5, 2018 17:18:44 GMT
i expect sylvestro to be walked back, and i'll take part in testing him too. Hes got just one too many answers on top of being essentially immortal. im fine with a caster being immortal (see: the other very difficult to kill casters of the game like Thyron, or Vlad1), but when his kit has answers to every meta boogeyman from incorp to recursion to just saying screw you to upkeeps, i can see that being too good by far This is a completely different thing though. The "Immortal" casters are ones that are super tough (Thyron with Storm Rager, Vlad1 with Blood of Kings/Wind Wall). He is in no way tough, his defensive stats are...enh and are not boostable like either of your examples. He has admonition and S. Stealth. I don't think the game should have only casters that are difficult to kill because big numbers. Wurmwood is good for the game. Syvestro as written would be good for the game. His whole gameplan is "We're going to see which one of us can win on scenario/attrition. You remember that those are in fact win conditions, yes?" Too many people rely on and too many games come down to assassination runs, and I don't think that was ever intended to be option 1, option 2, and option 5. Syvestro (clunky wording aside) is showing through design decisions that PP wants to bring that notion back into the game, either with a meta shifting caster, or with an entire meta shifting faction which is much more focused on attrition. Warcasters that have incredible toolkits (which Syvestro does) should be forced to consider assassination as a limiting factor in exerting their influence on the table. In many cases, Syvestro (as written) can completely cheat that paradigm, which may be a problem. If Harbinger casts Purification and Crusader's call, and takes a few Martyrdom damage, she's terrified of being shot to death. If Nemo3 spends his stack for a big turn, he's terrified of dying to a single gunshot that can get LOS to him. If Denny2 casts Hellmouth and Curse of Shadows, she could die to a single gunshot. If Syvestro casts Purification, and recasts Transmutation and Explosivo, he can camp zero and be functionally immune to shooting, even against models that can ignore stealth. Is that okay? Would changing it to just plain stealth make it less egregious? Perhaps, not sure. Testing will determine. |
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Mar 5, 2018 17:44:20 GMT
I'm going to be "That Guy" for a second. I love how so many people are all doom and gloom without even playing a game with or against them. These are all models that are in development and as far as we know, PP has been testing these models for a few years and feel that these immunities are not game breaking. When we finally get the entire picture when the CID does drop, we will then have a better chance to claim DOOM and be all gloomy, or we can actually put the models on the table and see if this really is that big of an issue. I'm very optimistic about the results as we know they are not introducing anything new and we know they are a debuff faction. That's hyperbolic, and doesn't do anything but lower the tone. Blanket dismissals of all concerns as "doom and gloom" is simply unhelpful. I hope everything is mostly fine out the gate, Sylvestro isn't as OP as I'm worried about, and CG end up a cool faction with some good stuff and a unique and fun playstyle. But we need to be sceptical, and we need to be looking out for things that break the game (remember, Una2 came out of internal playtesting with nobody spotting any problems), dud options, degenerate combos and things that choke out variety in both the faction and the wider game. I agree, final conclusions should be reserved for table time, but we can theorise until then. Your theory is that there's not yet anything to be worried about, other people theorise that some things are concerning, and nobody has yet been proven right. Theorymachine is great and all, but until we have people that have put models to table and can come back and tell us that a model truly is outrageously overpowered, it just sounds all doom and gloom right now. We have had one person on the Facebook group page actually put models on the table and play with them. According to his play experience so far, Syvestro is a brain game that makes you play some mental gymnastics in deciding what is the right move from turn to turn when it comes to his free abilities. Some of these turned out to be more powerful than previously thought. On the flipside, he said that the other caster (for the life of me I can't remember his name) is far more powerful than expected with his gun options. Practical application is needed to get over this doom feeling that everyone is bringing before we even put anything on the table. It's a little discouraging watching all of this play out like this, honestly. |
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Mar 5, 2018 18:10:52 GMT
This is a completely different thing though. The "Immortal" casters are ones that are super tough (Thyron with Storm Rager, Vlad1 with Blood of Kings/Wind Wall). He is in no way tough, his defensive stats are...enh and are not boostable like either of your examples. He has admonition and S. Stealth. I don't think the game should have only casters that are difficult to kill because big numbers. Wurmwood is good for the game. Syvestro as written would be good for the game. His whole gameplan is "We're going to see which one of us can win on scenario/attrition. You remember that those are in fact win conditions, yes?" Too many people rely on and too many games come down to assassination runs, and I don't think that was ever intended to be option 1, option 2, and option 5. Syvestro (clunky wording aside) is showing through design decisions that PP wants to bring that notion back into the game, either with a meta shifting caster, or with an entire meta shifting faction which is much more focused on attrition. Warcasters that have incredible toolkits (which Syvestro does) should be forced to consider assassination as a limiting factor in exerting their influence on the table. In many cases, Syvestro (as written) can completely cheat that paradigm, which may be a problem. If Harbinger casts Purification and Crusader's call, and takes a few Martyrdom damage, she's terrified of being shot to death. If Nemo3 spends his stack for a big turn, he's terrified of dying to a single gunshot that can get LOS to him. If Denny2 casts Hellmouth and Curse of Shadows, she could die to a single gunshot. If Syvestro casts Purification, and recasts Transmutation and Explosivo, he can camp zero and be functionally immune to shooting, even against models that can ignore stealth. Is that okay? Would changing it to just plain stealth make it less egregious? Perhaps, not sure. Testing will determine. Totally understand, but we're not comparing apples to apples here: Nemo 3 has a gun, chain lightning, force hammer, +1 armor, and a better feat (and Finch!). He has significantly stronger/more offensive tools than Syvestro. Harbinger has greater range, 3 more focus, Cataclysm, and Godhead to punish melee. She has offensive tools that Syvestro does not have and has significant ability to buff her field and negate being punished for engaging. Denny 2 is probably the best comparison, but Denny 2 also gains the ability to be Incorporeal at will, has better offensive tools, and has much better maneuverability. Maybe something in line with how Denny2 can't be incorporeal every turn, Syvestro can't choose the same buff on back to back turns? This would add tactical flexibility and interesting decision making, while not neutering a unique "marquee" ability. Again, not saying that it is not something that should be discussed, but lets look beyond "Buff/nerf?" and add "augment". |
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 5, 2018 18:37:21 GMT
Warcasters that have incredible toolkits (which Syvestro does) should be forced to consider assassination as a limiting factor in exerting their influence on the table. In many cases, Syvestro (as written) can completely cheat that paradigm, which may be a problem. If Harbinger casts Purification and Crusader's call, and takes a few Martyrdom damage, she's terrified of being shot to death. If Nemo3 spends his stack for a big turn, he's terrified of dying to a single gunshot that can get LOS to him. If Denny2 casts Hellmouth and Curse of Shadows, she could die to a single gunshot. If Syvestro casts Purification, and recasts Transmutation and Explosivo, he can camp zero and be functionally immune to shooting, even against models that can ignore stealth. Is that okay? Would changing it to just plain stealth make it less egregious? Perhaps, not sure. Testing will determine. Totally understand, but we're not comparing apples to apples here: Nemo 3 has a gun, chain lightning, force hammer, +1 armor, and a better feat (and Finch!). He has significantly stronger/more offensive tools than Syvestro. Harbinger has greater range, 3 more focus, Cataclysm, and Godhead to punish melee. She has offensive tools that Syvestro does not have and has significant ability to buff her field and negate being punished for engaging. Denny 2 is probably the best comparison, but Denny 2 also gains the ability to be Incorporeal at will, has better offensive tools, and has much better maneuverability. Maybe something in line with how Denny2 can't be incorporeal every turn, Syvestro can't choose the same buff on back to back turns? This would add tactical flexibility and interesting decision making, while not neutering a unique "marquee" ability. Again, not saying that it is not something that should be discussed, but lets look beyond "Buff/nerf?" and add "augment". I agree with you. Judgement is premature. Concerns are valid at this point, but we'll need to see how they play out before reaching any conclusions. |
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