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Post by benjamini on Mar 2, 2018 13:59:56 GMT
I had similar concerns as a Khador player who likes to use Sorscha or Greylords from time to time when the whole Storm of the North theme got nearly blanket cold immunity and I didn't get a lot of sympathy back then. I hope this whole thing shakes out okay for Menoth players!
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 2, 2018 14:08:45 GMT
I had similar concerns as a Khador player who likes to use Sorscha or Greylords from time to time when the whole Storm of the North theme got nearly blanket cold immunity and I didn't get a lot of sympathy back then. Suck it up Menoth Scrubs! Translated that for you  |
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Post by benjamini on Mar 2, 2018 14:15:11 GMT
I won't deny there is a bit of that, though on the other hand I really do hope it turns out better for them than it did for me. A lot of my concerns were based on blanket list-wide immunities being unhealthy for the game... so it would be hypocritical not to also be against it here.
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Post by jisidro on Mar 2, 2018 14:26:04 GMT
I won't deny there is a bit of that, though on the other hand I really do hope it turns out better for them than it did for me. A lot of my concerns were based on blanket list-wide immunities being unhealthy for the game... so it would be hypocritical not to also be against it here. I always bark against them but get nowhere... I creates a stupid situation where Sorscha and Greylords are bad against each other... it's like AKs not working against Russians or Coca-Cola not making americans diabetic. ( I apologize to Russians and Americans for AKs and Coca-cola being the first thing to pop in my mind as iconic of those respective countries. ) |
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824 
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Post by Xintas on Mar 2, 2018 14:49:16 GMT
Just out of curiosity, are there are fire immune models (so far) that are also not corrosion immune? Not saying that it is 1 to 1 (Menoth has a higher % of flame), but I'm not hearing similar complaints from Cryx about the corrosion immunity. Not saying that blanket immunities are good, but it does seem like the focus is mostly on fire.
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Post by W0lfBane on Mar 2, 2018 14:50:26 GMT
I had similar concerns as a Khador player who likes to use Sorscha or Greylords from time to time when the whole Storm of the North theme got nearly blanket cold immunity and I didn't get a lot of sympathy back then. I hope this whole thing shakes out okay for Menoth players! Trolls already did what you talked about to the protectorate. Horgle 2, pyres, & stone. Trolls just hate on any elemental type damage. You merely adopted the whining about elemental immunity. Protectorate was born with it, molded by it. We didn't stop whining till we were full grown. |
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Post by W0lfBane on Mar 2, 2018 14:51:58 GMT
Just out of curiosity, are there are fire immune models (so far) that are also not corrosion immune? Not saying that it is 1 to 1 (Menoth has a higher % of flame), but I'm not hearing similar complaints from Cryx about the corrosion immunity. Not saying that blanket immunities are good, but it does seem like the focus is mostly on fire. How many corrosion based ranged attacks does cryx have. All I can think of is the spray thrall and solo |
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 2, 2018 14:52:24 GMT
I had similar concerns as a Khador player who likes to use Sorscha or Greylords from time to time when the whole Storm of the North theme got nearly blanket cold immunity and I didn't get a lot of sympathy back then. I hope this whole thing shakes out okay for Menoth players! Trolls already did what you talked about to the protectorate. Horgle 2, pyres, & stone. Trolls just hate on any elemental type damage. You merely adopted the whining about elemental immunity. Protectorate was born with it, molded by it. We didn't stop whining till we were full grown. And apparently that still doesn't stop you  Just out of curiosity, are there are fire immune models (so far) that are also not corrosion immune? Not saying that it is 1 to 1 (Menoth has a higher % of flame), but I'm not hearing similar complaints from Cryx about the corrosion immunity. Not saying that blanket immunities are good, but it does seem like the focus is mostly on fire. How many corrosion based ranged attacks does cryx have. All I can think of is the spray thrall and solo Couple of Venoms on Warwitch Sirens and various Denny's. Denny 3's mount spray. Terminus' spray. Multiple casters with the Blood Rain spell. Bloat Thralls, Bile Thralls. Desecrator, Corrupter, Defiler, Kharybdis ranged attacks. Those are off the top of my head |
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Mar 2, 2018 17:15:56 GMT
Couple of Venoms on Warwitch Sirens and various Denny's. Denny 3's mount spray. Terminus' spray. Multiple casters with the Blood Rain spell. Bloat Thralls, Bile Thralls. Desecrator, Corrupter, Defiler, Kharybdis ranged attacks. Those are off the top of my head Thanks for the list! I knew there were a bunch, but I wasn't sure how many and frankly was hoping someone with more information would be able to save me from researching it. |
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 2, 2018 17:24:38 GMT
Trolls already did what you talked about to the protectorate. Horgle 2, pyres, & stone. Trolls just hate on any elemental type damage. You merely adopted the whining about elemental immunity. Protectorate was born with it, molded by it. We didn't stop whining till we were full grown. And apparently that still doesn't stop you How many corrosion based ranged attacks does cryx have. All I can think of is the spray thrall and solo Couple of Venoms on Warwitch Sirens and various Denny's. Denny 3's mount spray. Terminus' spray. Multiple casters with the Blood Rain spell. Bloat Thralls, Bile Thralls. Desecrator, Corrupter, Defiler, Kharybdis ranged attacks. Those are off the top of my head Cryx also has Ashen Veil (which Fire Immunity ignores), Blackbanes (who cause continuous fire), Eruption of Ash on Venethrax's weapon (cause fire damage to models within AOE 3" of a boxed model), Gaspy 2's Caustic Mist spell is corrosion, and Ashpyxious1 has Breath of Corruption (Corrosion). I don't have their card handy, but it's possible that the new Smog Belcher unit is fire typed? |
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 2, 2018 18:34:10 GMT
Im greatly disinterested by general warmachine balance discussions these days because they tend to go: Nonfaction player - this is OP Faction player - Its fine because xyz Then these roles immediately flip the moment the other faction is being looked at. I will say from my perspective id like to keep his general rule set, test him very heavily and slowly walk him back if hes too good. Theres loads of changes that can be implemented without even changing his super stealth. But i heavily expect this CID to be as discordant as previous ones I disagree, I intend to play crucible, and I'm calling for sylvestros toning down. Many people are ethical w ith this sort of thing. When I played cygnar in mk3, I openly called for edit: stormlances to lose a point of def and leaps on guns. Not everyone is a cynical opportunist. |
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Post by Azuresun on Mar 2, 2018 18:42:21 GMT
Im greatly disinterested by general warmachine balance discussions these days because they tend to go: Nonfaction player - this is OP Faction player - Its fine because xyz Then these roles immediately flip the moment the other faction is being looked at. I will say from my perspective id like to keep his general rule set, test him very heavily and slowly walk him back if hes too good. Theres loads of changes that can be implemented without even changing his super stealth. But i heavily expect this CID to be as discordant as previous ones I disagree, I intend to play crucible, and I'm calling for sylvestros toning down. Many people are ethical w ith this sort of thing. When I played cygnar in mk3, I openly called for them to lose a point of def and leaps on guns. Not everyone is a cynical opportunist. And even from a selfish perspective, I strongly dislike auto-includes. If I do pick up CG in the future, I don't want to be thinking "Well, I can play the cool, flashy tank girl, but I guess I need to take the boring but OP support guy again." |
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 2, 2018 18:48:17 GMT
Im greatly disinterested by general warmachine balance discussions these days because they tend to go: Nonfaction player - this is OP Faction player - Its fine because xyz Then these roles immediately flip the moment the other faction is being looked at. I will say from my perspective id like to keep his general rule set, test him very heavily and slowly walk him back if hes too good. Theres loads of changes that can be implemented without even changing his super stealth. But i heavily expect this CID to be as discordant as previous ones I disagree, I intend to play crucible, and I'm calling for sylvestros toning down. Many people are ethical w ith this sort of thing. When I played cygnar in mk3, I openly called for them to lose a point of def and leaps on guns. Not everyone is a cynical opportunist. I agree. I also intend to pick up Crucible Guard...and I think Syvestro (and some of the other models) probably need some nerfs. When we see the faction as a whole we'll be able to judge. At this point, anyone who has a valid opinion about Crucible Guard (meaning that they have experience playing this game) already owns other factions. To think that someone would want CG to be OP (to the detriment of their other factions, and the game as a whole) is pretty absurd (though I'm sure that some of those absurd people do exist). Likewise, anyone who wants to play CG should be cautious of and concerned about the faction's power level being objectively too high and/or too strong against certain factions. If that ended up being the case, it would hurt the game as a whole, and by extension, the cool new army that you want to play. I also don't like the fact that blanket (and no counterplay) upkeep/animi removal is being added back to the game in more numbers. I'm one of the people in the camp that believes Purification (and clone spells) should not exist on any caster. |
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Post by GumbaFish on Mar 2, 2018 19:02:44 GMT
As someone who is almost certainly planning on purchasing them upon release, and is definitely going to test them during the CID, my aim is to provide objective and honest feedback to the best of my ability. I would rather have something be balanced come out of the process through legitimate feedback than something broken because players had an objective to create something strong they could play. To me getting something balanced right away is much better than having something that will need to have another errata to bring it in line. I feel like on the whole the Grymkin CID did a pretty good job of this from an outsiders perspective.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Mar 2, 2018 19:18:43 GMT
I'm going to be "That Guy" for a second.
I love how so many people are all doom and gloom without even playing a game with or against them. These are all models that are in development and as far as we know, PP has been testing these models for a few years and feel that these immunities are not game breaking. When we finally get the entire picture when the CID does drop, we will then have a better chance to claim DOOM and be all gloomy, or we can actually put the models on the table and see if this really is that big of an issue. I'm very optimistic about the results as we know they are not introducing anything new and we know they are a debuff faction.
The only model(s) that stand out for me currently is Syvestro. His super stealth *might* be an issue if the rest of the faction does have an easy means to protect him (like a cloud wall) and the free purification (this has a simple solution, limit it to spells costing 3 or less). I'm extremely excited and see everyone's concerns, but I'm not all doom and gloom until the CID starts. That's when we can rage about all this and actually get some changes to happen through the proper channels.
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