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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 1, 2018 14:10:31 GMT
Ah, so you did. I must have glazed over it in my early-morning haze. Question, would Eyeless Sight still ignore it since it's a cloud effect? NO worries, i actually just edited my last comment too (holy crap you guys are fast this morning) for some additional justification. I contend that Impenetrable Haze is too powerful and should not grant super stealth. It should grant stealth, if anything, because having a caster this difficult to assassinate is probably not very balanced. Just take Lynus & Edrea and Wind Burst it away  I have a mental image of Syvestro doing something dodgy in his cloud thinking no one can see him, and it suddenly blowing away and leaving him in an embarrassing position. |
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Mar 1, 2018 14:16:52 GMT
Well luckily it sounds like we'll have lots of time to test him in CID and make sure he's in line.
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Post by jisidro on Mar 1, 2018 14:21:22 GMT
Impenetrable Haze is very good, but to use it he misses out on another very powerful ability, checks and balances yo! I don't think he'll come out of CID as is... the wording on that ability is a sloppy example of cut corner rule wording. This game has a great rule set as its cardinal virtue. This diminishes that. Find some way to make him super-resistant to assassinations at range without making him the super-alchemical ninja. Perhaps a hefty range penalty achieves the same? Or just say he cannot be targetted by ranged magic originating more than 5" away from him? I'm sure I won't be then one making a casa for that in CID. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 1, 2018 14:24:12 GMT
Impenetrable Haze is very good, but to use it he misses out on another very powerful ability, checks and balances yo! I don't think he'll come out of CID as is... the wording on that ability is a sloppy example of cut corner rule wording. This game has a great rule set as its cardinal virtue. This diminishes that. Find some way to make him super-resistant to assassinations at range without making him the super-alchemical ninja. Perhaps a hefty range penalty achieves the same? Or just say he cannot be targetted by ranged magic originating more than 5" away from him? I'm sure I won't be then one making a casa for that in CID. I am not sure I see that, the wording seems very clear to me, can you please expand a bit further, cheers |
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Post by jisidro on Mar 1, 2018 14:31:58 GMT
I don't think he'll come out of CID as is... the wording on that ability is a sloppy example of cut corner rule wording. This game has a great rule set as its cardinal virtue. This diminishes that. Find some way to make him super-resistant to assassinations at range without making him the super-alchemical ninja. Perhaps a hefty range penalty achieves the same? Or just say he cannot be targetted by ranged magic originating more than 5" away from him? I'm sure I won't be then one making a casa for that in CID. I am not sure I see that, the wording seems very clear to me, can you please expand a bit further, cheers I agree with you as it is a direct quote from the Stealth rule without calling it out. Primal pg 17 - Stealth – Ranged and magic attacks targeting this model from a point of origin (p. 40) greater than 5˝ away automatically miss. This model is not an intervening model (p. 36) when determining line of sight from a model more than 5˝ away.CG spoiler: "Impenetrable Haze- ... While this model is completely in the AOE, ranged and magic attacks targeting this model from a point of origin greater than 5˝ away automatically miss. This model is not an intervening model when determining line of sight from a model more than 5˝ away." It's the stealth rule without calling it out. It's poorly done. |
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 1, 2018 14:34:43 GMT
36cygnar24guy36 Why are you so invested in trying to keep a rule that is literally stealth in all but name, just so it would ignore every kind of Stealth tech? The rule is sloppy for this exact reason, because the trend for the past 2 editions they have worked to consolidate common or similar rules, so all of the different effects would be easier to remember. And now they make this stealth but not stealth for basically no other reason than for it to be more powerful. Also, Lynus and Edrea are available to 5 factions in the entire game, of which Crucible Guard and, of course, Cygnar are included.
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Post by Azuresun on Mar 1, 2018 14:36:43 GMT
I don't think he'll come out of CID as is... the wording on that ability is a sloppy example of cut corner rule wording. This game has a great rule set as its cardinal virtue. This diminishes that. Find some way to make him super-resistant to assassinations at range without making him the super-alchemical ninja. Perhaps a hefty range penalty achieves the same? Or just say he cannot be targetted by ranged magic originating more than 5" away from him? I'm sure I won't be then one making a casa for that in CID. I am not sure I see that, the wording seems very clear to me, can you please expand a bit further, cheers Well, RAW Sylv will stop being an intervening model for a turn, even if he gets moved out the cloud. He really feels too versatile at the moment, very much shaping up to be the new Dreamer. Assassination-proofing, Admonition, magic weapons & RFP on tap, recursion, no-counterplay upkeep hate, amazing focus efficiency, jack boosts, debuff, buff.....right now, he overshadows the other two known CG warcasters pretty badly before we even get into external balance. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 1, 2018 14:41:49 GMT
36cygnar24guy36 Why are you so invested in trying to keep a rule that is literally stealth in all but name, just so it would ignore every kind of Stealth tech? The rule is sloppy for this exact reason, because the trend for the past 2 editions they have worked to consolidate common or similar rules, so all of the different effects would be easier to remember. And now they make this stealth but not stealth for basically no other reason than for it to be more powerful. Also, Lynus and Edrea are available to 5 factions in the entire game, of which Crucible Guard and, of course, Cygnar are included. Because it's fun to have interesting and unique stuff in this game.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 1, 2018 14:42:40 GMT
I am not sure I see that, the wording seems very clear to me, can you please expand a bit further, cheers I agree with you as it is a direct quote from the Stealth rule without calling it out. Primal pg 17 - Stealth – Ranged and magic attacks targeting this model from a point of origin (p. 40) greater than 5˝ away automatically miss. This model is not an intervening model (p. 36) when determining line of sight from a model more than 5˝ away.CG spoiler: "Impenetrable Haze- ... While this model is completely in the AOE, ranged and magic attacks targeting this model from a point of origin greater than 5˝ away automatically miss. This model is not an intervening model when determining line of sight from a model more than 5˝ away." It's the stealth rule without calling it out. It's poorly done. It works though if the aim is to have the benefit of Stealth without the counters, which I assume is the intention |
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 1, 2018 14:48:39 GMT
I think the rules for Bastions and Cinerators are fine, Bastions could probably afford to go up to pow 12, and they have some pretty nice synergies in faction, Sanguine Bond plus healing from the Vessel of Judgement, and they take defensive buffs pretty well. They are a bit overcosted however, if MoW Demo Corp can go down to 14 points, then that is probably where Bastions and Cinerators need to be. A tad off topic, but sadly both bastions and cinerators are not fine. Especially in context of the updated heavy infantry from other factions. SPD4, mediocre arm, and single attacks make them really overpriced. Also, compare them to knights exemplar and it just makes you shake your head. Bastions need to be solidified as a defensive unit, they do not have any decent "defensive" tools right now. Compare them to troll champions, who hit harder, have higher volume of attacks, better durability, and better deliver-ability, and you see how far below the line of acceptable they are. Cinerators are supposed to be the offensive unit, but fail in that respect. 5 pow 12 WM attacks for their cost is absurd combined with low speed is also not helpful. Most boosted pow 12's remove them from the table making vengence irrelevant. Even and 13 points for a max unit I would be hard pressed to consider them over knights exemplar. Both untis need abilities that assist them in accomplishing their intended purposes. Also, Sylvester looks super strong, as do the infantry. Pow 15 on the charge and carapace plus 2 types of immunity for that cheap? No way... |
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Post by jisidro on Mar 1, 2018 14:54:47 GMT
I agree with you as it is a direct quote from the Stealth rule without calling it out. Primal pg 17 - Stealth – Ranged and magic attacks targeting this model from a point of origin (p. 40) greater than 5˝ away automatically miss. This model is not an intervening model (p. 36) when determining line of sight from a model more than 5˝ away.CG spoiler: "Impenetrable Haze- ... While this model is completely in the AOE, ranged and magic attacks targeting this model from a point of origin greater than 5˝ away automatically miss. This model is not an intervening model when determining line of sight from a model more than 5˝ away." It's the stealth rule without calling it out. It's poorly done. It works though if the aim is to have the benefit of Stealth without the counters, which I assume is the intention I believe it is the intention but "It works" isn't good enough for this game when it comes to rules. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 1, 2018 15:01:34 GMT
It works though if the aim is to have the benefit of Stealth without the counters, which I assume is the intention I believe it is the intention but "It works" isn't good enough for this game when it comes to rules. I'm sorry I really don't understand what the issue is with it, maybe I am just being dim, but I don't see a problem with having a rule that is the Stealth rule in all but name |
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Mar 1, 2018 15:20:06 GMT
I believe jisidro's point is that it's an unnecessarily-wordy workaround for a rule that people are already familiar with that is going to cause confusion. Say you're in a tournament setting, on the clock, and your opponent uses the cloud and tells you "It's basically Stealth", which is a pretty reasonable way to explain it when you're trying to do it quickly while thinking about tactics. You either have to stop your train of thought and spend time asking to read the card/have it explained in detail or just take them on their word. Then halfway through your assassination run you try to shoot him with Gun Mages or something and he says "Oh it's not actually Stealth so they don't ignore it".
Alternatively new players are just gonna get stuck trying to figure out if it is any different from Stealth, stopping games and asking on forums why it's Stealth but not Stealth and if they are missing some key wording that makes it different from Stealth other than it not being called Stealth.
If they want it to be "Better Stealth" they could achieve the same thing in less words by saying "While this model is completely in the AOE it gains Stealth [icon]. Abilities that ignore Stealth[icon] do not ignore Stealth when targeting this model." Same effect, no duplication of wording, less confusion.
That said, those two scenarios aren't necessarily going to be super common and we've had these kinds of rules before. I don't think it's the end of the world either way but it definitely could be written cleaner.
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Post by chillychinaman on Mar 1, 2018 15:21:17 GMT
I believe it is the intention but "It works" isn't good enough for this game when it comes to rules. I'm sorry I really don't understand what the issue is with it, maybe I am just being dim, but I don't see a problem with having a rule that is the Stealth rule in all but name Because there is no counter play short of walking up to it. At least stealth has some options for removal or being ignored. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 1, 2018 15:24:38 GMT
I'm sorry I really don't understand what the issue is with it, maybe I am just being dim, but I don't see a problem with having a rule that is the Stealth rule in all but name Because there is no counter play short of walking up to it. At least stealth has some options for removal or being ignored. Sorry, I mean I don't understand why it is apparently a badly worded rule in any way, I understand why people don't like what it does, but that is different to what I thought myself and Jisidro are discussing |
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I have a mental image of Syvestro doing something dodgy in his cloud thinking no one can see him, and it suddenly blowing away and leaving him in an embarrassing position. 
