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Post by jisidro on Aug 29, 2018 14:06:34 GMT
Ok, here we go. The idea was to see how much RH changes casualties against shooting. I generated 3500 sets of 12 random D6 rolls and used them to simulate 3 different shots into Tharns. Did 2 shots for each target assuming no KD, aka, DEF and Tough are relevant into the second shot. I used the same die rolls for the 3 shots. An double one, for example, is a miss for all 3 shots but a 3+3 can be a kill or not depending on the POW vs ARM. I feel I should explain why I did 2 shots into the same target. If a model is hit once RH doesn't matter as it doesn't help to survive the attack. RH only increases survival against multiple attacks by raising the boxes left and making the attacker do a minimum of 2 points of damage on subsequent attacks. TL; DR: Has an impact of less than 10% into POW 11 shots and effectiveness reduces drasticaly as POW increases. For Tharn it's DEF and Tough that matters. RH is cute into the lowest ranges of shooting but not a defense mechanism. Do you guys agree with the experiment and/or the conclusion?
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Post by jisidro on Aug 29, 2018 14:07:50 GMT
Pow 17 is the common pow of guns? The rule is clearly targeted at making male tharns resilient to Small arms fire I didn't mention guns... I was saying that RH on chosen and on Tharn is a different ability because of the ammount of boxes and (expected) ARM.
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Post by Lord_Randall on Aug 29, 2018 14:16:16 GMT
Pow 17 is the common pow of guns? The rule is clearly targeted at making male tharns resilient to Small arms fire I didn't mention guns... I was saying that RH on chosen and on Tharn is a different ability because of the ammount of boxes and (expected) ARM. This is a given
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Post by jisidro on Sept 4, 2018 13:38:06 GMT
What do you think of CID so far?
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Post by redcathal on Sept 4, 2018 13:55:49 GMT
I really like it, looking forward to seeing what changes tomorrow
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Post by paradox on Sept 4, 2018 15:56:39 GMT
So far it's a promising start. Many pieces still have a long way to go. Dev involvement has been really limited, given life events among the team and the holiday weekend.
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Post by bloodhawk on Sept 4, 2018 16:06:28 GMT
I have been really pleased with the majority of the tharn changes. Some more tweaking seems in order, but by and large things are looking really good. Satyrs seem excellent with the exception of the riphorn, curious if anything changes there. Warpwolves are my biggest pain point (primarily because I want them to be a compelling option compared to wolds). While the points reduction and PF helps, it sort of masks the real issue, which is that Warpwolves in COTW do not compare favorably to bones of orboros in the same types of matchups.
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 4, 2018 17:06:25 GMT
The warpwolf discussion has been the most interesting part of this CID. Personally I felt that the point reduction and pathfinder were enough and was super excited to get that on the table. The more I read peoples arguments regarding warp str in the current environment the more I start to agree with them.
It would be nice to see the +2str or weapon damage on the chassis and actually let the warps bring utility to the models rather than the mandatory +2str the turn you send them in.
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Post by mindwormjim on Sept 4, 2018 17:23:31 GMT
Most of it looks pretty good. I haven't had a chance to put everything on the table but these are some stand-out points to me: - Storm Raptor and Well of Orboros definitely need more work.
- I'm not really convinced that Ravagers or the Blood Pack need Rapid Healing. They seem pretty good to me without it.
- Lord of the Feast is very good in Devourer's Host (possibly a little too good) where he can start with corpses but is rather pathetic in lists where he can't and I'm not sure how to approach this.
- Parry on Bloodtrackers is completely insane.
- Morvahna1 got some quality-of-life buffs but didn't address her actual problems.
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 4, 2018 17:31:37 GMT
Most of it looks pretty good. I haven't had a chance to put everything on the table but these are some stand-out points to me: - Storm Raptor and Well of Orboros definitely need more work.
- I'm not really convinced that Ravagers or the Blood Pack need Rapid Healing. They seem pretty good to me without it.
- Lord of the Feast is very good in Devourer's Host (possibly a little too good) where he can start with corpses but is rather pathetic in lists where he can't and I'm not sure how to approach this.
- Parry on Bloodtrackers is completely insane.
- Morvahna1 got some quality-of-life buffs but didn't address her actual problems.
Morv1, 2 and Brennos all need significantly more work.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Sept 4, 2018 17:54:05 GMT
I'm fairly pessimistic about Warpwolves. I feel pretty strongly that they will see minimal play unless they see some significant revisions to their concept, but...I'm also fairly convinced (given that literally nothing changed for living beasts between lock and load spoilers and CID release date) that this is a Khador warjack situation, where the Devs have given us their hotfix for the beasts, and the models are 'ostensibly' in CID, but they're not REALLY up for significant discussion or revision.
Then again, I also think that the bigger issue with Warpwolves is their dogganm theme list, and the fact that they're statted like beasts that have access to significant external support (which they kind of did in Mk2, with things like Bounding and Lightning Strike) and Caster support (which they also kinda did in Mk2, at least comparative to other casters, before PP started giving out escort/mobility/stupidly powerful field marshals like candy in Mk3) when they've really got neither at this point.
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 4, 2018 18:07:36 GMT
I'm fairly pessimistic about Warpwolves. I feel pretty strongly that they will see minimal play unless they see some significant revisions to their concept, but...I'm also fairly convinced (given that literally nothing changed for living beasts between lock and load spoilers and CID release date) that this is a Khador warjack situation, where the Devs have given us their hotfix for the beasts, and the models are 'ostensibly' in CID, but they're not REALLY up for significant discussion or revision. Then again, I also think that the bigger issue with Warpwolves is their dogganm theme list, and the fact that they're statted like beasts that have access to significant external support (which they kind of did in Mk2, with things like Bounding and Lightning Strike) and Caster support (which they also kinda did in Mk2, at least comparative to other casters, before PP started giving out escort/mobility/stupidly powerful field marshals like candy in Mk3) when they've really got neither at this point. CotW could actually see some very simple changes to help it out. Main drawback is the lack of durable solos for controlling flags and units for zones which creates horrible scenario play. In my mind this can be overcome with a couple of additions and a fix to the lord of the feast. - Fix druids and throw them in CotW - Allow the death wolves in CotW (with a starting corpse on each member) - Complete the fixes to the LotF such that he's usable outside of devHost - Make the Well of Oboros do more for living warbeasts and cut its connection to wolds - Change prowl on the stone keeper back to stealth - Upgrade shifting stones teleport to 10" - Reduce free point thresh hold to 25pts of beasts (or allow structures to add to free points) - Allow gallows groves to be taken in pairs for free Any other fixes will require new models to be released and I don't see that happening any time soon. Okay so I typed all that out and then realized its not so simple. There's a ton of drawbacks there that need to be addressed.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Sept 4, 2018 19:20:53 GMT
I'm fairly pessimistic about Warpwolves. I feel pretty strongly that they will see minimal play unless they see some significant revisions to their concept, but...I'm also fairly convinced (given that literally nothing changed for living beasts between lock and load spoilers and CID release date) that this is a Khador warjack situation, where the Devs have given us their hotfix for the beasts, and the models are 'ostensibly' in CID, but they're not REALLY up for significant discussion or revision. Then again, I also think that the bigger issue with Warpwolves is their dogganm theme list, and the fact that they're statted like beasts that have access to significant external support (which they kind of did in Mk2, with things like Bounding and Lightning Strike) and Caster support (which they also kinda did in Mk2, at least comparative to other casters, before PP started giving out escort/mobility/stupidly powerful field marshals like candy in Mk3) when they've really got neither at this point. CotW could actually see some very simple changes to help it out. Main drawback is the lack of durable solos for controlling flags and units for zones which creates horrible scenario play. In my mind this can be overcome with a couple of additions and a fix to the lord of the feast. - Fix druids and throw them in CotW - Allow the death wolves in CotW (with a starting corpse on each member) - Complete the fixes to the LotF such that he's usable outside of devHost - Make the Well of Oboros do more for living warbeasts and cut its connection to wolds - Change prowl on the stone keeper back to stealth - Upgrade shifting stones teleport to 10" - Reduce free point thresh hold to 25pts of beasts (or allow structures to add to free points) - Allow gallows groves to be taken in pairs for free Any other fixes will require new models to be released and I don't see that happening any time soon. Okay so I typed all that out and then realized its not so simple. There's a ton of drawbacks there that need to be addressed. I was going to say, this seems like a lot of changes, and a complete rewriting of the theme! Which I'd be thrilled to see, but it seems to be well outside the scope of CID. unfortunately.
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Post by bloodhawk on Sept 4, 2018 22:14:23 GMT
I am worried it is outside the scope of this CID. And honestly, if it is something we see fixed at a future date I am fine with a "patch" today to at least make the Warpwolves slightly better. My worst nightmare would be if the changes in this CID are all we will see for years and that we are all SOL for playing Warpwolves. For crying out loud there was a Facebook post about Barnabus2 vs Kromac2 and it just made me want to drop Circle for minions so that I can actually play the way I want to. But I love Circle too much <3 so I will pound my head against the wall (or is that a Wold). At least I have Wolds to comfort me and hopefully Iona too eventually.
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Post by Forsaken on Sept 5, 2018 0:39:04 GMT
I'm fairly pessimistic about Warpwolves. I feel pretty strongly that they will see minimal play unless they see some significant revisions to their concept, but...I'm also fairly convinced (given that literally nothing changed for living beasts between lock and load spoilers and CID release date) that this is a Khador warjack situation, where the Devs have given us their hotfix for the beasts, and the models are 'ostensibly' in CID, but they're not REALLY up for significant discussion or revision. Then again, I also think that the bigger issue with Warpwolves is their dogganm theme list, and the fact that they're statted like beasts that have access to significant external support (which they kind of did in Mk2, with things like Bounding and Lightning Strike) and Caster support (which they also kinda did in Mk2, at least comparative to other casters, before PP started giving out escort/mobility/stupidly powerful field marshals like candy in Mk3) when they've really got neither at this point. CotW could actually see some very simple changes to help it out. Main drawback is the lack of durable solos for controlling flags and units for zones which creates horrible scenario play. In my mind this can be overcome with a couple of additions and a fix to the lord of the feast. - Fix druids and throw them in CotW - Allow the death wolves in CotW (with a starting corpse on each member) - Complete the fixes to the LotF such that he's usable outside of devHost - Make the Well of Oboros do more for living warbeasts and cut its connection to wolds - Change prowl on the stone keeper back to stealth - Upgrade shifting stones teleport to 10" - Reduce free point thresh hold to 25pts of beasts (or allow structures to add to free points) - Allow gallows groves to be taken in pairs for free Any other fixes will require new models to be released and I don't see that happening any time soon. Okay so I typed all that out and then realized its not so simple. There's a ton of drawbacks there that need to be addressed. Much of this is outside of the scope of this CID and I don't think we can expect direct changes to CotW. That is a shame because if we don't get the changes we need now it will definitely be years before we get another chance. However, as much as CotW needs a bit of work Wildhunt and Secret Masters need it more (especially SM) so they should get CIDs before CotW. That said we can however hopefully get the satyrs, warpwolves, stormraptor, LotF and Well into a good spot which will go a long ways to making CotW work. The changes we've seen so far are a step in the right direction we just need to be able to take them further. I'm personally not looking for buffs I just want them to be be where it seems these models are meant to be and for some sort of cohesion within this faction. Circle needs to get a clearer identity and our beasts should be a big part of that identity.
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