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Post by chickenslayer on Jun 6, 2018 4:30:34 GMT
Hey guys, I'd like to discuss Iron Avalanches of Spam and would like some lists that push the boundaries of Acceptability.
I feel that regarding Armoured Korps lists, people have been using a bit too much...restraint. They've been including unnecessary vanity picks like Atanas. Or unnecessary Command Attachments. This especially in light of Primal Terrors builds where you can happily pick up 3 units of Warmongers, take a unit of Chosen and still have points for your Blight Bringer and support. Which is quite a lot of highly dangerous beef.
I'd like to see if we can make something like that, in Khador, using Man of War, exploiting their strengths of a fantastic ranged suite and good power in general whilst overcoming the issue of attack volume with more, well, volume. Making list with at least 3 units of dude mans, good amounts of support then working from there.
Many Armoured Corps builds can get away with 2 units + stuff and feel quite happy about this turn of events. And those lists have been posted up here or elsewhere. But I'm not after those.
I'm more after something like this.
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Armored Corps
[Irusk 2] Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27]
- Devastator [14]
- Juggernaut [13]
Man-O-War Kovnik [4]
Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5]
Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5]
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)]
Kayazy Assassins (max) [15]
- Kayazy Assassin Underboss [0(4)]
Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14]
- Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
To this
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Armored Corps
[Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion [+27]
- Rager [10]
- Spriggan [17]
Man-O-War Drakhun [9]
Man-O-War Drakhun [9]
Man-O-War Kovnik [4]
Man-O-War Kovnik [4]
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)]
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)]
Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7]
Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14]
- Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)]
Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14]
Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14]
Or perhaps this
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Armored Corps
[Butcher 1] Orsus Zoktavir, The Butcher of Khardov [+28]
- Marauder [11]
- Ruin [17]
Man-O-War Kovnik [4]
Man-O-War Kovnik [4]
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)]
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)]
Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16]
- Man-O-War Bombardier Officer [5]
Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14]
- Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
To at its dopey extremes this.
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Armored Corps
[Irusk 2] Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27]
- Devastator [14]
- Devastator [14]
Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)]
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)]
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)]
Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14]
Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14]
Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
(this list, btw, works way better with 4 units + a Siege Chariot. But I kinda just like how beautiful 5 units of Man of War durdling around is)
Anyway, specifically I'm looking for lists where the goal is to cut support, necessary or not, max box count and yet also maintain enough flexibility to be effective in a real game where you can't just flop a huge amount of beef onto the table. Ones where the caster can pick up the slack, the list has enough relevant shooting to not just get run over by some idiot running Knights Exemplar Spam under someone like Kreoss 2 and which also exploit good models present in Man of War.
Builds where it isn't an auto-GG when a Skinni Boi under Dreamer or Child scythes through your super expensive unit and then is in a situation where there is no follow up.
Ideally these lists also bolt enough enough Rules to keep them relevant in a real meta and to mean they're not just a list flopped on the table asking people if they're ability to pierce armour is Thiiiiiiiis big or Thiiiiiiiiiiiiis big.
Am curious to see what people come up with
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 6, 2018 5:06:27 GMT
How bout some min units of mechs? They count for points also Anyway, this is my take. Added mechs to piss people off Idea is to Cloud Wall up, advance, shoot, all that jazz War Room Army Khador - ArmCorp Jank Theme: Armored Corps 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Koldun Kommander Aleksandra Zerkova - WJ: +28 - Destroyer - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Destroyer - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4 Man-O-War Demolition Corps - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 Man-O-War Demolition Corps - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 Man-O-War Demolition Corps - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 Man-O-War Bombardiers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 - Man-O-War Bombardier Officer - PC: 0 Man-O-War Bombardiers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 Man-O-War Bombardiers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 THEME: Armored Corps --- GENERATED : 06/05/2018 22:17:04 BUILD ID : 2066.18-05-11
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Post by chickenslayer on Jun 6, 2018 5:30:44 GMT
Urgh, where do I start Come on, at least chuck in two Strike Tankers in place of one of those min Bomber Man units
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 6, 2018 5:40:18 GMT
I mean, my vlad2 list will look like this. conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0T77f8dHhFl5l5l3l3l7l17Qgd7QgdKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps !!! Your army contains pre-release entries. [Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion [+27] - Victor [34] Gobber Tinker [2] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Is that enough spam?
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Post by Netherby on Jun 6, 2018 5:52:58 GMT
Well, there is Vlad Shockingly Spammy:
[Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion [+27] - Victor [34] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [0(5)] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Bombardier Officer [0(5)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
And of course Demo Derby Witch:
[Old Witch 2] Zevanna Agha, The Fate Keeper [+27] - Grolar [18] - Rager [10] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14]
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Post by chickenslayer on Jun 6, 2018 6:02:59 GMT
I mean, my vlad2 list will look like this. conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0T77f8dHhFl5l5l3l3l7l17Qgd7QgdKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps !!! Your army contains pre-release entries. [Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion [+27] - Victor [34] Gobber Tinker [2] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Is that enough spam? C+ Grade In all fairness, this is sort of what I think is a bare minimum. Got some bulk with its 3x units and Stuff, but then has a Victor to seal the deal. But, while we're here, you can try cutting a Kovnik, the Forge Seer and that Goober for Strike Tankers or Orin
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Post by goodk4t on Jun 6, 2018 6:31:59 GMT
and you guys think, atanas will make these lists worse? Im not really sold on this guy, but he seems necessary. try to talk me out of him please... for my wallet and peace of mind
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 6, 2018 6:37:59 GMT
and you guys think, atanas will make these lists worse? Im not really sold on this guy, but he seems necessary. try to talk me out of him please... for my wallet and peace of mind Saxon does 1/3 of what he does better and cheaper. Irusk2 has tactician anyway. Vlad2 can't feat on him. He's not necessary. But shoving him near Vlad2 feated demo corps with HoF is a good way of saying "bugger off"
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Post by chickenslayer on Jun 6, 2018 6:45:22 GMT
Can't feat on Atanas but I have feated on his Flag Female Dog a suspicious number of times. To the point where he has been promoted to Flag Stud Anyway, some observations regarding Support: Due to advanced move and how it works in this theme, you don't need All the Kovniks. If your caster doesn't run them particularly well, you can comfortably cut down to 1 in the name of fitting in more OP models. Demo Corps in particular do not need Kovniks apart from when they're charging in. Shocks want it the most but often if they're in a passive role that turn or are already in the zone can get away without it. Bombardiers are now kinda a Shield Wall unit due to their pathfinder thing, but they also can be ambivalent to this buff. And, of course, once the lines clash it's not as relevant. That's when the Kovnik probably instead charges in there to put those 3 Initials he has to good use. Atanas is pretty unnecessary in a lot of cases, especially with Bombardiers. They don't abuse Tough enough because they have no access to Fair and Balanced (Steady) Tough and in general they're garbage at holding the line anyway (one of the whole reasons to look at spamming is to screen them with other, more tanky or expendable MoW so they can set up for some sweet Value Minifeats by pinning their opponent against a wall of Shocktroopers, Devestators and Tankers). Atanas' best call is Retalitory Strike as an aside. Setting up that ability is a real head-screw for opponents. He can also put Tough on the Chariot, which can be randomly the most tilting thing in the game to someone, if they weren't on tilt already by it gaining Tactician. Irusk 2 obviously doesn't need him and more shooting focused ones can cut him for More Stuff. If his only purpose is Pathfinder and your caster has an out for that particular problem then honestly look at getting rid of him. On the other hand, Atanas + Demo Corps + Dragadovich + Vlad 2 is a pretty Firetrucked combo and a 100% worth feating to pull off. Pop all the things and put Retalitory Strike (if they are going to punch them) or Tough (if they are going to shoot them) on the unit. You will rarely be dissapointed. Casters or models who can mimic this to a lesser effect are still going to be in a good place. That said, I think with Man of War in general, be absolutely ruthless with caster selection. If they don't manage to bring something that couldn't be done better by Vlad 2, then they are basically unplayable. This could be bringing a different trick, like Sorscha 3 (who can run Ragers really Firetrucking well and therefore can make these Demo Spam lists really resilient to shooting) or Butcher 3 (who wants this spam to deliver himself and can bring Ruin) or push numbers in different directions (Butcher 1 and Vlad 1, who are both better at pushing Gun numbers, the former bringing Ruin and the latter Battle Engines). Justify a caster choice however you want (it's not like I've only written Vlad lists), but acknowledge the elephant in the room when there's a caster like Vlad 2 and where he sets the average. As an aside, in order to play Man of War well, you need to have all the Support pieces doing work in the mid to late game, especially Kovniks and Atanas. You're still a Khador list: you want your "support" pieces to reveal their true colours and support the army with buffs, then Murder. Those guys should be making attacks most games, either to unjam aggressors or to act as the follow up to finish something off. Finally, and back to casters, but they can bring a lot of the meta-bullshit rules people have wanted for Armoured Corps, meaning you can keep your list focused on Applied Excellence in Spam and Murder
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 6, 2018 7:50:40 GMT
The thing with spam is mow dude count maths work differently to, say, LegoS maths because of 5 man unit sizes. You can have 5 shocks for 16pt or you can have 3 tankers for same price and it's hard to say which is bigger attack volume and box count. Same for Atanas. You take him as support, but he's still a decent combat model for 3.5pt a dude in comparison to a shock that costs you 3.2pt. And the retalatory he brings is a solid attack count multiplier for his price.
The only models that never contribute to dude count are Drakhuns. Those are always a loss in terms of attack volume or box count per point.
I feel like 3 big units is bare minimum for an AK list (or for any infantry theme list actually). I want to have 4, but that means less UAs. I think 3 full units with UAs may end up being what you want. 4 units no UAs = 20 dudes 3 units with UAs = 18 dudes, but they do more 3 units are also more flexible in terms of support. 4 units always mean you need 2 kovniks, 3 can probably do with only 1.
And I'm currently registered for a tournament next week with this pair (no new releases), so we'll see how it goes: Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Butcher 3] Kommander Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed [+22] - Juggernaut [13] - Ruin [17] - War Dog [3] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion [+27] - Decimator [15] - Decimator [15] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Man-O-War Drakhun [9] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Saxon Orrik [4] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] List that I considered, but picked B3 because of familiarity with caster: 20 pow 14 shots per turn with s&p and kiss [Vladimir 1] Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Prince [+28] - Marauder [11] - Spriggan [17] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Koldun Kapitan Valachev [0(4)] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] List that I want to try a lot with new releases: Just run this forward, feat and see what happens Strakhov2 -2x Marauder 2x kovnik 2x Supressor 2x Shocks+UA 3x min Demos Atanas
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Post by Netherby on Jun 6, 2018 8:02:53 GMT
Vlad2 is obviously the best choice for Shock spam. But you can write MoW lists that are both good and also not best under Vlad2.
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Post by Havock on Jun 6, 2018 8:52:06 GMT
I personally feel the Shock and Bombardier UA really are needed on their parent unit. Steady and Sturdy are amazing for scenario play and limiting the control options against them -being speed 4, knocking them on their ass has always been one of them. I have been proxy-testing them with S1 but I felt that choice was way too "cute". Sure, it violated that combined arms list in ways that weren't even funny. But man, I wonder if I could have just Irusk'd my way through that as well
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 6, 2018 8:52:28 GMT
Vlad2's kit is perfect for a melee-oriented list. The only casters that can rival him in this role are the ones with "invincibility turn" feat like Strakhov2 or Irusk1 because 14" is not always enough to alpha. Kozlov looks good on paper with his threat+invincibility combined turn, but he doesn't have anything besides feat going for him. Don't know how S3 figures into all of this. She's also the invincibility caster, but clouds are too easy to counter.
Ranged lists can be done better with V1, I2, OW2 I think.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 6, 2018 9:21:17 GMT
This especially in light of Primal Terrors builds where you can happily pick up 3 units of Warmongers, take a unit of Chosen and still have points for your Blight Bringer and support. Which is quite a lot of highly dangerous beef. Anyway, specifically I'm looking for lists where the goal is to cut support, necessary or not, max box count and yet also maintain enough flexibility to be effective in a real game where you can't just flop a huge amount of beef onto the table. So you want to maximize box spam, but also want to be able to play into matches that are bad for box spam? Blimey, start with an easy one why don't you? There's a few fundamental differences between Armoured Corps and Primal Terrors. First off would be that the theme benefits are better for Primal Terrors when running this sort of list; Vengeance on your whole army is a very significant uptick in speed and attack volume. Secondly is the nature of Legion. They have beasts that support in a wide variety of ways, so they can use their WBP as 'support'. We can't. Finally, the units available add a lot to the capabilities of Primal Terrors; the Hellmouth is a great scenario piece, Rotwings are not bad, etc. Both Armoured Corps and Primal Terrors have support solos, and of course caster support is a given, but Armoured Corps is not going to be able to leverage as many buffs as Primal Terrors. But then, it shouldn't. It has its own way of playing. However, in the spirit of the game: | Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps
!!! Your army contains pre-release entries.
(Irusk 2) Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27] |
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[/b] [/ul]Man-O-War Kovnik [4]Man-O-War Strike Tanker [0(5)]Man-O-War Strike Tanker [0(5)]Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)]Ragman [4]Battle Mechaniks ( min) [3]Man-O-War Demolition Corps (min) [8]Man-O-War Demolition Corps (min) [8]Man-O-War Demolition Corps (min) [8]Man-O-War Shocktroopers ( max) [16]Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table] Irusk2 means you don't need Atanas. Conquest + Suppression is a foot-wide wall of P10 to wade through. Strike Tankers are sources of Greivous and can do insane damage if needed through hot-swapped FFE. Solid Ground means you can somewhat drop the Shocktrooper UAs for another unit of Demo Corps. Battle Lust and Ragman mean you don't really need the slightly less points-efficient full units of Demo Corps, as a 3 man unit will total most heavies on their own. Kovnik because I needed to spend 4 more points and he's handy. Mechanics to round out. If I had 1 more point available I'd probably take a second Kovnik.
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Post by kovnikninehouse on Jun 6, 2018 9:27:25 GMT
Here is a list for you. The Bomber UA can easily be switched for Dragos.
Its 27 dudes plus 3 jacks.
War Room Army
Khador - you asked for Dude spam??
Theme: Armored Corps 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Supreme Kommandant Irusk - WJ: +27 - Rager - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Rager - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Mad Dog - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7)
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0
Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 Man-O-War Demolition Corps - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 Man-O-War Demolition Corps - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 Man-O-War Demolition Corps - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 Man-O-War Bombardiers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 - Man-O-War Bombardier Officer - PC: 0 Man-O-War Bombardiers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10
THEME: Armored Corps ---
GENERATED : 06/06/2018 05:23:36 BUILD ID : 2066.18-05-11
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