vlad
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Post by vlad on Jun 11, 2018 14:12:53 GMT
How about this one: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0Tk_kZkZkZl5l3l3l2l7l1l7l77QgdKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps !!! Your army contains pre-release entries. [Sorscha 3] Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] I think Atanas is somewhat necessary for Relentless Charge, and Tactitian is definitively nice with so many units on the table. I think the Ragers and her feat should reduce the effect of incoming fire on the Demo Corps enough for them to have impact on the game. I plan on playing a “less efficient” version of this list, but see the merit in trying to spam boxes, even though MoW do seem a bit too expensive to do it effectively.
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Post by Voodoogk on Jun 11, 2018 18:33:04 GMT
Regarding the few lists that don't have dragos. I think he's the best single piece in the CID, he's better than even the tankers. A single vengeance on demo corps is probably going to net you more than the tanker alone. Then you have sanguine bond, and of course his lovely two hammer, skulls and gunning for butchers job, self. Otherwise this whole idea of quantity being it's own kind of quality is quite good.
I'm pretty sure on Vlad2 being the best AC caster in a vacuum. Irusk2 is also good but easily the most boring option. There might be an argument to running like kozlov or irusk1 or strakh2 if you're trying to weigh in harder on this spam idea, 3 units of shocks under their feats are a bit of a question in their own right, but this was doable before the CID and it wasn't super great. I doubt we'll see it take over just because you get some free solos and an advance move. I've been running him with B3 myself, mostly because he allows you to answer some questions that normal AK lists might not be able to, but I haven't been spamming them for value, which I kind of like.
I've been sort of thinking A&H belongs in my AC list (unless it's b3) even sometimes without valachev since he competes for tanker spots. It hurts spamability but it allows you to use that AC list into a lot of things that would be a list chicken otherwise. Honestly anything that makes it so I don't have to run wolves of winter as my off list sounds pretty good. AC is good enough that with magic weapons you might be able to cover everything with just AC written two ways. I'm still at not enough games to prove that theory wrong anyway.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 11, 2018 20:01:16 GMT
Ok, I took my list for a test drive this past Saturday, and my horrible playing notwithstanding, here are my observations: 1.- On the "slowness" of ArmCorp: I managed to win by Scenario on Spread The Net 6 to 1. I threw my jacks into the opposing flag to contest, and one unit of Shocks got into the opposing Rectangle zone by top of 2 in Shield Wall. I'm not expecting that to happen with any sort of frequency, but it's not impossible. 2.- On the Sturdiness of ArmCorp: I brought 2 full units of Shocks with CAs just to have an additional 8 boxes of ARM 21 goodness. I'm not sure the extra body is needed because rarely did I lose enough Shock Troops that I couldn't keep going. That said, the Steady/Sturdy combo of the CA was great against Primal Terrors and Hellmouths. I may just drop 1 CA to make room for other models. 3.- On the usefulness of the Kovnik: I found Desperate Pace to be the linchpin in a lot of cases. What I struggle with is turning him from Support to Work, since he is so freaking slow and never gets a chance to run/charge something until turn 4 or 5 I'm happy with running the One MoWK. 4.- On the "right mix" of Units in ArmCorp: I'm running Irusk_2 with 2x Shocks, 1xBombs. Due to my lackluster playing, I rarely got enough value out of the Bombs, so I don't know if I should just go full Shocks, or drop them for Demos. The tankers gave me sufficient Range presence and a lot of good choices for FFE. 5.- On the damage output of Shocks: 1 Full Unit of Shocks with CA and Battle Lust killed a Megalith under Baldur's feat. I couldn't quite kill his Woldwrath though. Shockies and Battle Lust are just enough to kill any high ARM heavy, but not enough to kill a Gorgosal. I need to fix this I think.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 11, 2018 20:21:06 GMT
Regarding the few lists that don't have dragos. I think he's the best single piece in the CID, he's better than even the tankers. A single vengeance on demo corps is probably going to net you more than the tanker alone. Then you have sanguine bond, and of course his lovely two hammer, skulls and gunning for butchers job, self. Otherwise this whole idea of quantity being it's own kind of quality is quite good. It's interesting; I think Dragos was the worst piece in the CID. He just reeks of turd-polishing to me. If I'm paying almost 50% of the cost of a glass cannon unit for an attachment, it damn well better make them better cannons. Dragos just makes them slightly less fragile glass, sometimes. I honestly believe you're generally better off with a second min unit.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 11, 2018 21:30:10 GMT
Regarding the few lists that don't have dragos. I think he's the best single piece in the CID, he's better than even the tankers. A single vengeance on demo corps is probably going to net you more than the tanker alone. Then you have sanguine bond, and of course his lovely two hammer, skulls and gunning for butchers job, self. Otherwise this whole idea of quantity being it's own kind of quality is quite good. It's interesting; I think Dragos was the worst piece in the CID. He just reeks of turd-polishing to me. If I'm paying almost 50% of the cost of a glass cannon unit for an attachment, it damn well better make them better cannons. Dragos just makes them slightly less fragile glass, sometimes. I honestly believe you're generally better off with a second min unit. I mean, I'm inclined to agree. He's good with Vlad2. Put your feat on a unit, have Dragos minifeat and now you have a unit of 15/19 models which have to take 42 wounds before they die. I mean shove tough on them and it's a hard to kill package. Outside of Vlad2......l. Eh?
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Post by maxtermynd on Jun 11, 2018 22:19:20 GMT
I've been running these lists lately with Armored Corps using Irusk2, as nothing says "no frills" like Krazy Irusk's Discount Shocktroopers. First, one that I stole from this site, going for maximum dudeage: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0T797pkWl5l5cfcgl7l77Q7QKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Irusk 2] Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27] - Destroyer [14] - Juggernaut [13] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Kayazy Assassins (max) [15] - Kayazy Assassin Underboss [0(4)] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] And this one, which I created to try out the new chariot as well as get some more shooting into the list. Dragos is currently in there, but I'd likely swap to a Suppression Tanker once it gets released: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0T797p7pl5l5l7l1l77Q7QjJKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps !!! Your army contains pre-release entries. [Irusk 2] Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27] - Destroyer [14] - Destroyer [14] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] Man-O-War Assault Chariot [14] The problem with both is of course lack of magical weapons, so I see this as more of a Champions drop unless I can brew up a suitable anti-Wraith Engine/Grymkin answer.
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Post by chickenslayer on Jun 12, 2018 0:02:19 GMT
So about that: it's worth looking at casters who bring those rules baked in with minimal effort if you want to play this into, say, Grymkin. Though honestly, I don't think you really care much about Gremlin Swarms these days when 5 of the 6 scenarios have an objective and most Khador casters can Man Fight a Gremlin Swarm in their zone. At least you won't get locked out of your own scenario in this way Also, Aiyana & Holt work very well with Suppression Tankers and give you an advanced move. Honestly of all the Khador lists out there the only one they fit into better is probably Winter Guard. But, you know, if you really want Magic Weapons and to also Spam Man of War without Aiyana and Holt. Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps !!! Your army contains pre-release entries. [Butcher 3] Kommander Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed [+22] - Marauder [11] - Ruin [17] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] (this a bit light to be true spam but Oh Well, it has Butcher 3 running the show. Might be Worth) As an aside, I would like people here to try keeping an eye for the Functional. Box count is nice and all but your list has to actually work. Goal honestly is to look at making something like Slayer Spam or proper Mad Dog Spam: a list with the power of Spam that also is super functional due to flexible choices and caster abilities. It's interesting; I think Dragos was the worst piece in the CID. He just reeks of turd-polishing to me. If I'm paying almost 50% of the cost of a glass cannon unit for an attachment, it damn well better make them better cannons. Dragos just makes them slightly less fragile glass, sometimes. I honestly believe you're generally better off with a second min unit. I mean, I'm inclined to agree. He's good with Vlad2. Put your feat on a unit, have Dragos minifeat and now you have a unit of 15/19 models which have to take 42 wounds before they die. I mean shove tough on them and it's a hard to kill package. Outside of Vlad2......l. Eh? He's fine in general but Demo Corps are not like Warmongers despite occupying a similar spam price point. They're generally worse unless you can figure out a way to activate Shatter, at which point they're some of the best glass cannons in the game. Hence Vlad He's probably worth it though anyway just for Vengeance at his low low price of 0 points.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 14, 2018 8:43:51 GMT
Ok, I took my list for a test drive this past Saturday, and my horrible playing notwithstanding, here are my observations: 1.- On the "slowness" of ArmCorp: I managed to win by Scenario on Spread The Net 6 to 1. I threw my jacks into the opposing flag to contest, and one unit of Shocks got into the opposing Rectangle zone by top of 2 in Shield Wall. I'm not expecting that to happen with any sort of frequency, but it's not impossible. 2.- On the Sturdiness of ArmCorp: I brought 2 full units of Shocks with CAs just to have an additional 8 boxes of ARM 21 goodness. I'm not sure the extra body is needed because rarely did I lose enough Shock Troops that I couldn't keep going. That said, the Steady/Sturdy combo of the CA was great against Primal Terrors and Hellmouths. I may just drop 1 CA to make room for other models. 3.- On the usefulness of the Kovnik: I found Desperate Pace to be the linchpin in a lot of cases. What I struggle with is turning him from Support to Work, since he is so freaking slow and never gets a chance to run/charge something until turn 4 or 5 I'm happy with running the One MoWK. 4.- On the "right mix" of Units in ArmCorp: I'm running Irusk_2 with 2x Shocks, 1xBombs. Due to my lackluster playing, I rarely got enough value out of the Bombs, so I don't know if I should just go full Shocks, or drop them for Demos. The tankers gave me sufficient Range presence and a lot of good choices for FFE. 5.- On the damage output of Shocks: 1 Full Unit of Shocks with CA and Battle Lust killed a Megalith under Baldur's feat. I couldn't quite kill his Woldwrath though. Shockies and Battle Lust are just enough to kill any high ARM heavy, but not enough to kill a Gorgosal. I need to fix this I think. Ah, interesting! My list has been trying Conquest for the extra control and fun times with the gun, which I felt were more useful than Energiser, but having an Energisered Devastator as a contest-o-bot seems pretty excellent, really. 27" range in 2 turns with Bulldozer only just gets you into the far zone, though, I think? (EDIT: Just saw that you said 'flag', not zone. Only 25" needed there.) With the CAs on the Shocks, it's worth remembering that a Shocktrooper is 3.2 points, so you aren't paying much extra over a 6th bland body, but you get a lot of bang for that buck. For Irusk I would say that one of the main uses, though, is that you get an extra Battle Lust recipient. Kovnik is pretty handy. Two is better than one, but it's so hard to get them to do anything other than be Pacebots that I'm not convinced the second one is always needed. I still don't see why everyone likes the Bombardiers, tbh. They're effective against targets that every MoW is already effective against, so they often seem a little redundant to me. If you drop them you could take a full unit of Demo Corps (sans Dragos) and have 7 points left to spend. Or two min units and have 5 points. Either configuration works, although if you're looking for gargossal busting power it should probably be the full unit. Then you could use the spare points for something like Ragman, Orin, etc. Gorman might be a good shout now Rust has changed. Adding in Mechanics should also be possible, which gives you the extra advance move. A really off-the wall suggestion, if you think you need a fast contester, would be to drop the tinker to get 9 points and take a Drakhun, or drop the tinker and a Suppression Tanker (switching the free model to a Strike) to take the Assault Chariot. It's pretty fun in a blast-immune army. Shame I'll never have one outside of proxies, really; it's better than I thought.
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Post by Havock on Jun 14, 2018 23:45:42 GMT
The Assault Chariot is a pretty good light cavalry model
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 15, 2018 9:38:34 GMT
I think it's impossible to do the "spam mow list". Spam list works because the thing it spams can deal with anything. For example Karchev dogs could trample infantry very well and crush heavies with feat.
All mow models have glaring weaknesses: Shocks/demos - weaponmasters Demos/Bombers - shooting Tankers/Bombers - heavies
There is no single mow model type that deal with everything out there. However combined list that can deal with anything. It would be 2x shocks, 2x bombers, 2x supressors with a damage buff caster. The problem with this list is that it doesn't fit in 75 because you need UAs on bombers and kovniks. So you need to either drop a unit creating a weak flank or drop supressors opening you up to be killed by high def weaponmasters.
The absolute best you can do is: Khador Army - 73 / 75 points
Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Bombardier Officer [0(5)] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Bombardier Officer [5] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
Only 1 kovnik, but hopefully with Advance move shocks can get to zone in time. Notice how there is no points for pathfinder or tactician, so you're probably forced to be Irusk2 here.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jun 18, 2018 9:31:10 GMT
smoothcriminal: Could you do the following? Irusk2 +27 -Destroyer -14 -Juggernaut -13 Man-O-War Kovnik-4 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker-0(6) Man-O-War Suppression Tanker-0(6) Saxon Orrik -4 Man-O-War Bombardiers (max)-16 - Man-O-War Bombardier Officer -5 Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max)-14 - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich -0(6) Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] That seems pretty legit. Cheers, Dave
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 18, 2018 11:45:32 GMT
That seems to be it. The Orrick can be switched for second kovnik or a seer. 4 units [x] Best UAs [x] Maxed free points [x] exactly 75pt of mows [x] 28 mow count [x]
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jun 18, 2018 11:48:40 GMT
I went with Saxon for pathfinder access outside the feat and bombadiers. Maybe not required, but certainly useful. Both options probably work.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 18, 2018 23:58:55 GMT
Consider the following: min bombers + UA is 15pt big bombers no UA is 16
min bombers + UA do 2xpow16 CRAs at rat 8/9 or 4xpow14, can double the amount once big bombers no UA do 1xpow16 CRA at rat 8 and 1xpow17 CRA at rat9 or 5xpow15
So min bombers+UA have comparable output to full unit without UA and some bonuses of having UA on top. They also cost 15pt, which is rare spot for mows.
What this gives us is a list: 2x kovnik 2x shocks 2x min bombers+ua 2x suppressors which is 65pt
So we have a well-rounded list and 10pt to customize it on top.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 19, 2018 7:47:20 GMT
Consider the following: min bombers + UA is 15pt big bombers no UA is 16 min bombers + UA do 2xpow16 CRAs at rat 8/9 or 4xpow14, can double the amount once big bombers no UA do 1xpow16 CRA at rat 8 and 1xpow17 CRA at rat9 or 5xpow15 So min bombers+UA have comparable output to full unit without UA and some bonuses of having UA on top. They also cost 15pt, which is rare spot for mows. What this gives us is a list: 2x kovnik 2x shocks 2x min bombers+ua 2x suppressors which is 65pt So we have a well-rounded list and 10pt to customize it on top. I can get behind the minimum with UA being better than max without, (although I don't entirely agree) but objectively speaking 15 points for 2 P16 shots is not exactly efficient.
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