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Post by socialirregular on Feb 7, 2018 22:44:44 GMT
I wasn't on board before, but this is just adding to the argument that PP doesn't have much in mind for the faction and is willing to let it wallow.
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Post by cainuslupus on Feb 8, 2018 0:35:02 GMT
On a positive note - at least we get "Choosen so stronk" people to find new salt mine. But yeah, our CiD compared to others looks abysmal.
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Post by maximumhippo on Feb 8, 2018 4:24:10 GMT
So how do we feel about the number of models/revisions in the Khador CID that is now live?
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 8, 2018 5:33:46 GMT
So how do we feel about the number of models/revisions in the Khador CID that is now live? Salty.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 8, 2018 7:10:47 GMT
So how do we feel about the number of models/revisions in the Khador CID that is now live? To be fair, Khador's turnout is not unusual, and sits fairly in the middle of the range that previous CIDs have shown us. The only thing new about it is that it dispels the notion that PP was winding down CIDs in general and Legion was just the first case. I'm curious how the Protectorate CID will go, actually, because I abandoned that faction specifically because I didn't have any confidence that PP had a strong design direction for it.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 8, 2018 7:40:34 GMT
So how do we feel about the number of models/revisions in the Khador CID that is now live? To be fair, Khador's turnout is not unusual, and sits fairly in the middle of the range that previous CIDs have shown us. The only thing new about it is that it dispels the notion that PP was winding down CIDs in general and Legion was just the first case. I'm curious how the Protectorate CID will go, actually, because I abandoned that faction specifically because I didn't have any confidence that PP had a strong design direction for it. Also, quite a few of the Khador models in CID didn't get changes (yet) or have gotten nerfs. Doesn't seem disproportionate.
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Post by minmaximus on Feb 8, 2018 8:00:59 GMT
In addition, lots of Legions changes were far more drastic- the Blightbringer, Archangel, Thagrosh2 and Abyslonia1 saw pretty big changes, while nothing of that scale is really going on for Khador. In addition its new models consist of zero units, and four of the models (the tankers, the battle engines) are liable to be sold as kits. Warmachine is liable to always see a greater number of releases I think just due to the ease of selling kits.
I think PP could've done a lot more with the Legion CID given the Khador one wasn't toned down as expected however. The amount of new releases tied to it feel small in comparison. I don't think its a malicious decision, or necessarily a sign that they don't know what to do with the faction, but rather that they overestimated how much work would need to go into the warlock and gargantuan reworks. A couple solos or another Rotwing unit would've really padded the CID out and cut down on the salt potential somewhat.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 8, 2018 8:40:45 GMT
In addition, lots of Legions changes were far more drastic- the Blightbringer, Archangel, Thagrosh2 and Abyslonia1 saw pretty big changes, while nothing of that scale is really going on for Khador. In addition its new models consist of zero units, and four of the models (the tankers, the battle engines) are liable to be sold as kits. Warmachine is liable to always see a greater number of releases I think just due to the ease of selling kits. I think PP could've done a lot more with the Legion CID given the Khador one wasn't toned down as expected however. The amount of new releases tied to it feel small in comparison. I don't think its a malicious decision, or necessarily a sign that they don't know what to do with the faction, but rather that they overestimated how much work would need to go into the warlock and gargantuan reworks. A couple solos or another Rotwing unit would've really padded the CID out and cut down on the salt potential somewhat. Khador rolled out of Mk3 way more tuned than Legion was, though. Arguably they need fewer changes in the first place.
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Post by minmaximus on Feb 8, 2018 9:07:43 GMT
In addition, lots of Legions changes were far more drastic- the Blightbringer, Archangel, Thagrosh2 and Abyslonia1 saw pretty big changes, while nothing of that scale is really going on for Khador. In addition its new models consist of zero units, and four of the models (the tankers, the battle engines) are liable to be sold as kits. Warmachine is liable to always see a greater number of releases I think just due to the ease of selling kits. I think PP could've done a lot more with the Legion CID given the Khador one wasn't toned down as expected however. The amount of new releases tied to it feel small in comparison. I don't think its a malicious decision, or necessarily a sign that they don't know what to do with the faction, but rather that they overestimated how much work would need to go into the warlock and gargantuan reworks. A couple solos or another Rotwing unit would've really padded the CID out and cut down on the salt potential somewhat. Khador rolled out of Mk3 way more tuned than Legion was, though. Arguably they need fewer changes in the first place. I agree, but the fact of the matter is the more drastic your changes, the more thoroughly you need to test them. Put simply if you were to try and fix every underperforming model in say, Cryx, you would need to spend a lot less time testing it compared to fixing every underperforming model in Legion. And the more you try to test at once, the more likely you are to under-test things. CID lasts three weeks, comparing the number of models and the scale of changes being done, I wouldn't be surprised if getting the Blightbringer alone tested adequately was anticipated to take as much work as 3-4 "normal" models. It's unfortunate, especially given factions only really see changes on the CID schedule, but thats the pragmatic reality of it.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 8, 2018 10:36:48 GMT
Khador rolled out of Mk3 way more tuned than Legion was, though. Arguably they need fewer changes in the first place. I agree, but the fact of the matter is the more drastic your changes, the more thoroughly you need to test them. Put simply if you were to try and fix every underperforming model in say, Cryx, you would need to spend a lot less time testing it compared to fixing every underperforming model in Legion. And the more you try to test at once, the more likely you are to under-test things. CID lasts three weeks, comparing the number of models and the scale of changes being done, I wouldn't be surprised if getting the Blightbringer alone tested adequately was anticipated to take as much work as 3-4 "normal" models. It's unfortunate, especially given factions only really see changes on the CID schedule, but thats the pragmatic reality of it. Well they 'pragmatic reality'd legion almost twice as much as some other factions.
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Feb 8, 2018 14:52:58 GMT
The amount of corrections on Khador jacks doesn’t surprise me. Their warjack costing was more of a mess than Legion or any other factions, they literally had no reason to ever play the top end or bottom end of their jacks given the economy of Jugg/Marauder.
They had to make a pretty wide range of changes to jack costs in order for the faction to make sense.
It seems like Legion has had more depth of change vs. breadth of change in khador. Both factions got/are getting what they needed though, I think overall it seems fine.
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Post by copperflame on Feb 8, 2018 15:19:21 GMT
The amount of corrections on Khador jacks doesn’t surprise me. Their warjack costing was more of a mess than Legion or any other factions, they literally had no reason to ever play the top end or bottom end of their jacks given the economy of Jugg/Marauder. They had to make a pretty wide range of changes to jack costs in order for the faction to make sense. It seems like Legion has had more depth of change vs. breadth of change in khador. Both factions got/are getting what they needed though, I think overall it seems fine. I don't know enough about Khador to talk about their faction balance. I face Khador a lot but I still want them to have a well-balanced faction with plenty of options. If we are talking specifically Legion internal balance, then the Primal Terror CID did not include a fair number of models/rules that are somewhat... lacking. Note: I am happy with the Legion CID turn out, even if that does mean I may need to buy the new models to have (more) answers to some lists that I struggle against. But I do think that there were a fair count of models that could have been reviewed.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2018 12:42:21 GMT
A simple points balance pass on Nephilim lights would not have been labor intensive and would have been much appreciated. Similar to what khador jacks are receiving.
They had/have options.
No need for revisionist history or forcing explanations such as "pragmatic reality". The reality is they did less than they have with other factions, and we are right to be disappointed. It's not the end of the world, but PP isn't perfect. It's OK to acknowledge faults, and praise successes. Legion CID had some successes, but also some shortcomings.
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