danx
Junior Strategist
Posts: 120
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Post by danx on Jan 31, 2018 9:27:21 GMT
Salt levels are high. Expectations were a bit higher than was delivered I think. A lot of us are disappointed.
This CID has addressed:
Over priced Landsharks. Terrible Gargossals. Warmongers being useless.
That's 6 things that are now looking playable that were not before.
Primal Terrors also brings a good set of theme benefits and we get 3 fun new releases. (Golab, Chosen and Gorag all look fun)
That's all good stuff.
I really expected 1-3 more new releases. I expected some beast support from Ogryn.
I was surprised the opportunity wasn't taken to tweak:
Legionaires + UA The catapult. Something for Ravens. (May be allowing the new beast and a unit for them) Nephalim Soldiers Nephalim Protectors
The new caster I'm not sure about. Looks fine. Bit too slow and squishy may be, but packs a serious punch to make up for it.
The revised casters look dialled up to 11. I don't think they will change the meta though.
Its a shame they didn't look at more casters for use in Primal Terrors, these two revised ones have reasonably low synergy with Primal Terrors I think.
Also taking the time to tweak Bethayne and Vayl1 would have been pretty easy. Both these could be powerful primal terrors casters.
If our CID had included 8 more legacy models I think everyone would have gone - wow that's nearly everything tuned to a good level. I guess that would mean legion might look finished from a Mk3 is done type point of view - as it stands they've saved themselves these models for another day?
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danx
Junior Strategist
Posts: 120
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Post by danx on Jan 31, 2018 9:29:55 GMT
I'll add. May be we'll get part 2 sooner than we think?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 31, 2018 9:42:45 GMT
I was thinking this yesterday... that some models may see changes a la Cryx, without going through CiD. Yes. Hellmouth will get a nerf. ARM16 or Cmd5/RNG1 or spawned tentacle doesn't activate. I dunno, 6 months ago I would insisted the Hellmouth needed a nerf, but now I am leaning towards it is probably just about ok
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jan 31, 2018 10:07:08 GMT
I dunno, 6 months ago I would insisted the Hellmouth needed a nerf, but now I am leaning towards it is probably just about ok It was always oscillating between frustrating and totally irrelevant in my games. Some armies have to abandon scenario against them, while some other just remove them like a breeze. But a LOT of people called for a nerf during this CID. I just hope that if this happens, it will be something similar to JVM's propositions. They make the Hellmouth offensively useless IMO, but at least it's still hard to remove from a zone, so as a free model it'd still have some utility. It'd still be another nail into the Primal-Terrors-is-fracking-boring-to-play coffin. Hellmouths are the only tricks left in the list, the tentacles are the last non-linear/non-pure-attrition threat.
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Post by slaughtersun on Jan 31, 2018 10:07:48 GMT
I was thinking this yesterday... that some models may see changes a la Cryx, without going through CiD. Yes. Hellmouth will get a nerf. ARM16 or Cmd5/RNG1 or spawned tentacle doesn't activate. Any inside information to support this?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 31, 2018 10:28:07 GMT
I was thinking this yesterday... that some models may see changes a la Cryx, without going through CiD. Yes. Hellmouth will get a nerf. ARM16 or Cmd5/RNG1 or spawned tentacle doesn't activate. Frankly, if so, good. The fact that a portion of legion is underpowered is no justification for leaving overpowered models as they are.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jan 31, 2018 10:54:39 GMT
Part of me wonders if there'll be other changes that didn't go through CiD included (much like the Coven nerf) when the rules changes go live, or if it was a smaller CiD due to a new faction, or just a new direction they wanted to go for. Time will tell I suppose, but I wouldn't read into it too much just yet. Coven got nerfed, the Corrupter was dropped to 14 instead of 15, Kharbydis got untested changes, Bloodgorgers got an untested MAT buff and the sea witch saw a CMD nerf. That's just what I could pick out comparing the January update notes to the week 3 Black Fleet rules related to changing existing models. It's premature to assume everything we saw in the CID is all the changes that are going to happen, and that everything will remain as it was in the final week of testing. I think most of the models that were in CID were in a good place at the end of the cycle (still think Chosen are too strong, but that's beside the point). I highly doubt that they'll buff models that weren't in the CID at all, without any external testing. That's how you end up with Una2. Lol, whut? You don't get Una2 by droping cost of unused models or sensibly buffing them. PP does that from time to time, not everything goes through CiD. And lets be brutally honest - CiD is more useless more models and themes it involves. So yeah, say Soldier and Protector price will drop to 8 points. I guarantee it won't change anything meta-wise other than you'll see them on the table. Say - Legionaires will cost 13 points. Still not Una2... Or maybe our artillery (yes, we have one, no, I didn't see it outside my two unpacked blisters I bought in bargain bin) will get AoE 4". Maybe you'll see them in CotD list (or not)?
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danx
Junior Strategist
Posts: 120
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Post by danx on Jan 31, 2018 12:18:25 GMT
My preferred tweeks are:
Soldier gains rapid strike. Protector gains +2 power. Legionnaires gain +2 power.
The artillery gain bloodlure.
None of this would be metabreaking - but it would mean these models see table time and are more useful.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Jan 31, 2018 12:24:54 GMT
I want bethayne to go up to 30 wb points. I don't think it's even possible for that to lead to an imbalance, but it would make her so much more playable.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jan 31, 2018 13:08:53 GMT
I want bethayne to go up to 30 wb points. I don't think it's even possible for that to lead to an imbalance, but it would make her so much more playable. I want Bethayne to have a good Theme Force. As a bonus, this will help the whole faction too.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jan 31, 2018 13:26:27 GMT
*sigh Bethayne doesn't need a rework. She's fantastic right now if you can wrap your head around her tool kit. As stated she really just needs WB points to get better. CotD wasn't really dead on arrival either. It's pretty middle-of-the-road power right now. So... "balanced"
The # of releases were poor. We basically knew everything that was going to come out long before the cycle. But as mentioned the Ogrun are a very small subset of Legion at the moment. Thagrosh 1 wasn't included because he is the GOLD standard right now. He has such a fantastic all around kit that he didn't need to be in the CiD.
I do admit the creativity in this CiD was severely lacking. "We need new ogrun models" "Put them on horses!" "No make them centaurs, like Kallus!" "Brilliant!" "We're done here"
Still, with all of this I can't say we're "doomed" for 6-13 months. I would be comically dishonest to say we're not holding our own right now, at least in a casual format. I legitimately get upset and don't want to play Legion against my wife (Circle) because it's not fun/fair for her. Yes there is an experience gap, but I am usually helping her find the best way to kill my stuff anyways. We have plenty of power pieces. We have a good amount of tricks. We have a fantastic ability to punish the slightest mistakes. It all adds up. It's the small nuances to play, the odd few interactions, and the intimidation factor that really can give us an advantage.
I feel bad for playing Aby2, she's just that good. I play Aby 2 with a Blightbriner, the un-updated one, and double blight wasps. I threaten 16" with one unit of killing spree mat 7, cumulative gang, 2" reach, Bees (oracle apparition factored in) and 14" on the other. I had two, Rebuke'd, bees walk into infantry and slaughter 7 single-wound infantry models. It's dumb just the amount of power we can apply with seemingly simple models.
We're not in the dumps, far from it. Skorne might be the best in Hordes right now. But I would say we can easily fight for second place. Grymkin is good, but limited. Especially against shooting which we can leverage a lot of. Circle still baffles me how it's doing so well and it's popularity. I still think trolls are a bit to easy to roll over (I dominated a scenario game against Bearka in the northkin theme with essentially only a full unit of idrians under Testament.)
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Jan 31, 2018 14:40:49 GMT
Keep in mind that we got no nerfs, and some very significant buffs. You can compare the number of models from our CID to the cryx one, but they did not see anything along the lines of our gargossal buff or our carni chassis discount and got hit with some extremely significant nerfs. A model count is a poor way of looking at the overall effect on the faction. Everything got better.
Everyone has pet projects of things they wanted changed, and it is important to realize that not all of that will happen. I wanted a Vayl1/2 tweak and a Legionnaire change.
Please don't start holding your breath waiting for the next CID to make all the changes you want, weekly threads on what you think is underpowered are not helpful. We should focus on making what we have work, and finding answers to our problems together as a community. Asking for changes/buffs constantly can be depressing to newer players, and do not help people play the faction.
I think we should start writing more Tactica, they are great for stimulating discussion.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jan 31, 2018 14:51:22 GMT
Cryx got nerfs because they had some really OP lists before. And who knows, we might still get ours in the dynamic update, coven-style Trollbloods on the other hand got Arcane Vortex on Mulg. Just sayin'.
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Post by althor on Jan 31, 2018 14:56:18 GMT
Please don't start holding your breath waiting for the next CID to make all the changes you want, weekly threads on what you think is underpowered are not helpful. We should focus on making what we have work, and finding answers to our problems together as a community. Asking for changes/buffs constantly can be depressing to newer players, and do not help people play the faction. I think we should start writing more Tactica, they are great for stimulating discussion. I do totally agree, less wishlisting, more listbuilding! Even if bethayne is not the best we can put on the table, I'd love to read a thread about her that would provide some insight, help and advice on how to have fun. cause after all it's just a game ^^
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jan 31, 2018 15:28:01 GMT
Even if bethayne is not the best we can put on the table, I'd love to read a thread about her that would provide some insight, help and advice on how to have fun. cause after all it's just a game ^^ She IS fun to play. Take 2 full swdmen, 2 warlords, 2 ravagores, a few martyrs, then a BM + harriers. Have fun. The funny trick here is to use SPD7 harriers to engage ennemy heavies on feat turn, charge them with WMs, then use energiser to shift the harriers onto other heavies, charge them with WMs, laugh. When faced with POW17 ravagores, people are motivated to come in your WM's charge range. Except it's not possible to do in theme, and Betty has 20pts, so you're ~15-20pts shorter than your opponents. Not very competitive.
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