princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Apr 13, 2017 7:57:20 GMT
The best thing about the Krielstone is that it's a buff you can't ignore or get rid of short of actually killing the unit. Buffs like that are rare, generally reserved for feats, not cheap support units. Nope. You can kill the stone bearer and if your attack prevents healing, the bubble vanishes for the turn. Killing grunts also makes it shrink, so it isn't really that hard to isolate a model you want dead if you need to do so. It's no wonder people think the Stone(!!!) is amazing if they don't actually know how it works. Yes you can also turn it off for a turn or shrink it down to its minimum 4". The point I'm trying to make is that you can't ignore it with Blessed or Spell Piercer or remove it with Purification, Dispel, Chasten, etc. I'd appreciate a bit less condescension thanks.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Apr 13, 2017 8:57:24 GMT
Nope. You can kill the stone bearer and if your attack prevents healing, the bubble vanishes for the turn. Killing grunts also makes it shrink, so it isn't really that hard to isolate a model you want dead if you need to do so. It's no wonder people think the Stone(!!!) is amazing if they don't actually know how it works. Yes you can also turn it off for a turn or shrink it down to its minimum 4". The point I'm trying to make is that you can't ignore it with Blessed or Spell Piercer or remove it with Purification, Dispel, Chasten, etc. I'd appreciate a bit less condescension thanks. But I think Trollsareblue's point is that not every list contains tools like Blessed, Spell Piercer etc and it's usually specifically caster or faction based. Every faction has the ability to kill the stone and it's easier than you think, especially with PP's new penchant for ambushing units in themes.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 13, 2017 9:25:22 GMT
Well you can also kill a Junior or Beast Handlers or whatever. That's not the Stone's weakness. That's a weakness of any model except for flags. The stone is in fact more resilient to this approach.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Apr 13, 2017 10:44:40 GMT
Well you can also kill a Junior or Beast Handlers or whatever. That's not the Stone's weakness. That's a weakness of any model except for flags. The stone is in fact more resilient to this approach. I'd disagree that a stone is more resilient than Junior. Junior doesn't need to be anywhere near his target to upkeep it and even when he is, he's usually camping 2 focus.
Beast Handlers move up, buff their beasts and then are mostly expendable so aren't often targeted. It is nice when you can kill them before the approach, but it's hard to do and at the end of the day both these options are much cheaper than the stone.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 13, 2017 11:03:55 GMT
I'm happy people don't target my beast handlers more often. I'd get into real trouble just taking the bare minimum otherwise. With the new CMD6 they are extremely vulnerable to their leader getting sniped out. If people targeted them more often (and I didn't play Zaadesh all the time) I'd be in quite a pickle.
Junior needs to get within 6" to switch the buff, which is quite relevant. But we were on the topic of Ambush, so what does it matter?
You are suffering from the typical "the grass is greener on the other side" mentality. Other factions' models have downsides too you know?
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Apr 13, 2017 11:27:10 GMT
You are suffering from the typical "the grass is greener on the other side" mentality. Other factions' models have downsides too you know? If I'm honest you clearly haven't played Trolls and have maybe you've struggled against them in the past, and it's hard to explain the nuance of the situation to you.
It's certainly something you need a couple of hundred games to really be able to visualize and so it can be hard to explain to someone who thinks about how great a Stone would be in their lists, but It's fine. At the end of the day, me convincing you that Trolls need help won't change the fact that the majority of people who are good at the game agree with me.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 13, 2017 12:16:05 GMT
I don't play Trolls. I have played against them however, coming to the conclusion that they have issues. I have yet to trivially remove the stone when it's behind a bunch of warbeasts and has ~5 self-sac targets.
And you can pack that condescension up. I have told you multiple times that I know that Trolls need help. In this very thread even. How can I be expected to hold a conversation with you if you do not read what I write?
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Apr 13, 2017 12:26:06 GMT
I don't play Trolls. I have played against them however, coming to the conclusion that they have issues. I have yet to trivially remove the stone when it's behind a bunch of warbeasts and has ~5 self-sac targets. And you can pack that condescension up. I have told you multiple times that I know that Trolls need help. In this very thread even. How can I be expected to hold a conversation with you if you do not read what I write? I read what you wrote and if I'm honest I found your response condescending.
I replied in kind. If you want people to talk to you in a respectful manner you need to speak to them in the same way.
Hope that clears it up!
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Post by jpgreat1 on Apr 13, 2017 13:42:31 GMT
Currently I picked up trollbloods and while I agree they could use an errata of buffs, they aren't as bad as you all think. So I agree with Zich's statement of grass is greener mentality. I never in any of my games thus far had my krielstones so easily removed as you describe. Even when I played cygnar, a jr was removed easier by long range threats then I could ever do against the stones. I'm not saying this as just as casual player but a player who plays with "the big boys".
Trollbloods are in a weird spot because obviously PP didn't want them to bend the meta in such a way were you had to answer health spam, medium infantry spam, armor spam, and so on. Cause of this, I feel some options are lacking, however; if you say because Ragnor shield guard spam list or a Doomie3 PoD with 1 King or 2 isn't as effective as pstryker1 double colossal/chargers spam then I have to question the style of lists you are bringing. I recently used the pstryker1 and yes, I agree its a POWERFUL list but even that list had clear weaknesses. The pairing and what lists cover what is ten times more important in this version then it ever was in mk2. Simply because, no 2 pairings can cover all basis. Take it from the recent convention I went to, I brought haley2 SD and pstryker HM. I played Haley2 twice because EVERY opponent I played had an answer to storm division which was simply guns. As far as the original question asked, trollblood infantry are pretty good, way better then cygnars because cygnars infantry is crutched hard on lances.(which are op i might add) Take that away and you are relying on trenchers crutch which while appropriately costed are still quite a number of points that can't do work once engaged.
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Post by phantasmagorium on Apr 13, 2017 14:14:36 GMT
At the point where you're making this argument, it is not worth having this conversation with you. So... you claim that the Stone(!!!) is awesome, but are unwilling to discuss its points? Or make comparisons to other "must-haves?" At that point, you are back to discussing the infantry on its own merits, and we return to them being schlock. No, I refuse to argue with someone who thinks Trolls are a slow, ARM-oriented faction. That's a fundamentally incorrect belief fueled entirely by Mk2 Warders.
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Post by Gaston on Apr 13, 2017 14:29:20 GMT
Deescalate the personal attacks and stay on topic.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 13, 2017 14:48:38 GMT
I guess that's correct. I apologize for my tone earlier Arcaux. That was impolite. What I will certainly agree with is that the Stone could use a more efficient initial fueling mechanism. Maybe a mini-feat that allows it to leach Fury from FF beasts in command? I heard some good Troll players complain about not being able to effectively deploy their upkeeps if they go second.
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Post by trollsareblue on Apr 13, 2017 15:06:41 GMT
I don't play Trolls. I have played against them however, coming to the conclusion that they have issues. I have yet to trivially remove the stone when it's behind a bunch of warbeasts and has ~5 self-sac targets. I think this is the relevant point, here. Seriously. Yes, the stone is usually hiding behind the beasts, right next to the warlock. Which is why it isn't running around offering +2 ARM/+1 STR to the warrior models. This makes nearly every unit in the faction extremely easy to shoot off the board. The cheapest unit isn't even worth playing in most lists because it is SPD 5, MAT 5. It isn't fast enough to get in the way or jam an opponent out of zones. It doesn't hit hard enough to clear anything with boxes, and it isn't sturdy enough to hold a zone by flooding it.
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Post by phantasmagorium on Apr 13, 2017 15:26:03 GMT
I don't play Trolls. I have played against them however, coming to the conclusion that they have issues. I have yet to trivially remove the stone when it's behind a bunch of warbeasts and has ~5 self-sac targets. I think this is the relevant point, here. Seriously. Yes, the stone is usually hiding behind the beasts, right next to the warlock. Which is why it isn't running around offering +2 ARM/+1 STR to the warrior models. This makes nearly every unit in the faction extremely easy to shoot off the board. The cheapest unit isn't even worth playing in most lists because it is SPD 5, MAT 5. It isn't fast enough to get in the way or jam an opponent out of zones. It doesn't hit hard enough to clear anything with boxes, and it isn't sturdy enough to hold a zone by flooding it. However, to the point of the thread (who is the *worst*), I would still take Troll infantry over Convergence infantry. Heck, Convergence doesn't even have an infantry theme yet.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Apr 13, 2017 16:19:27 GMT
I think this is the relevant point, here. Seriously. Yes, the stone is usually hiding behind the beasts, right next to the warlock. Which is why it isn't running around offering +2 ARM/+1 STR to the warrior models. This makes nearly every unit in the faction extremely easy to shoot off the board. The cheapest unit isn't even worth playing in most lists because it is SPD 5, MAT 5. It isn't fast enough to get in the way or jam an opponent out of zones. It doesn't hit hard enough to clear anything with boxes, and it isn't sturdy enough to hold a zone by flooding it. However, to the point of the thread (who is the *worst*), I would still take Troll infantry over Convergence infantry. Heck, Convergence doesn't even have an infantry theme yet. I think I like that there is variety in CoC. Even though the only have a few options. They have: - High def, hiGH Speed Melee Unit - Tough elite Infantry - Tough Single Wound Infantry - Anti Infantry Elite shooting Infantry - Anti Infantry single Wound Shooting infantry I do understand the argument that they are the worst, because they only have 5 units, but wow those 5 units all fill different and interesting niches.
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