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Post by trollsareblue on Apr 10, 2017 13:20:11 GMT
Fantastic at dying, maybe. Fenns block lanes well and die to a stiff breeze otherwise. They only look good in comparison to the rest of troll infantry. If you can't get fennblades to get work done, you're either running them into a list that's designed to take them out at extreme ranges, or you are playing them wrong. They almost always get their points back. Err, no. The "you just aren't playing them right" is some nonsense. I've played them into nearly every faction. They have victim stats. They can kill other infantry, if they survive the trip, and maybe a light. So can pretty much anything else. The best I've ever done with them was against Minions, and that faction isn't exactly blowing up the meta either. The Fenns have worse than victim stats: anything pointed their way will kill them. They are also expensive for what they do. Unit/ca + fell caller minimum is 25 points. I see plenty of people running them with the kithkar and chronicler as well, trying to leverage something out of the unit, which puts them at 33 pts. For that big an investment, they should beat face. They do not. They get in the way, and kill five or so models before they are whittled down and become insignificant. Now, maybe your meta is filled with people that don't bring guns, MAT 7 vengeance weapon masters, sprays, or AOEs. In that case, they probably do seem pretty good. |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 10, 2017 17:38:33 GMT
Looking over at Fennblades as a guy who doesn't play them I wouldn't call 12/14 Victim stats....But I would call them WAAAAAAY overpriced stats for its cost. They don't hit hard, their ability is situational. Vengeance is nice but the stats are quite-sub par for the cost.
All comparable "Hit Hard" infantry hits harder or is more survivable.
Do Trolls have some kind of super great support stuff that I don't know about?
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Post by phantasmagorium on Apr 10, 2017 19:06:07 GMT
Looking over at Fennblades as a guy who doesn't play them I wouldn't call 12/14 Victim stats....But I would call them WAAAAAAY overpriced stats for its cost. They don't hit hard, their ability is situational. Vengeance is nice but the stats are quite-sub par for the cost. All comparable "Hit Hard" infantry hits harder or is more survivable. Do Trolls have some kind of super great support stuff that I don't know about? Probably. Like the Krielstone giving them +2 ARM & +1 STR, or Madrak2 making them weaponmasters, or Horgle giving them +2 ARM (stacking with the stone) and immunity to knockdown, or Grissel2 just being Grissel2, etc. |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 10, 2017 19:24:34 GMT
Im always Wary when people say "Unit X is Good because Warcaster Y makes them better" Sometimes it's an amazing combo, but other times it's just sorta expected.
Even with the Krielstone Im not seeing much. You gotta invest so many points for them to have any decent defensive measures, and then invest IN the stone for them to have slightly higher hitting power.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724 
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Post by Arcaux on Apr 10, 2017 20:51:02 GMT
Looking over at Fennblades as a guy who doesn't play them I wouldn't call 12/14 Victim stats....But I would call them WAAAAAAY overpriced stats for its cost. They don't hit hard, their ability is situational. Vengeance is nice but the stats are quite-sub par for the cost. All comparable "Hit Hard" infantry hits harder or is more survivable. Do Trolls have some kind of super great support stuff that I don't know about? Probably. Like the Krielstone giving them +2 ARM & +1 STR, or Madrak2 making them weaponmasters, or Horgle giving them +2 ARM (stacking with the stone) and immunity to knockdown, or Grissel2 just being Grissel2, etc. This is a really pointless argument so I don't know why I'm getting involved, but i will say. Fennblades are rarely ever in the stone aura. They are a vanguard unit and they run mostly with infantry casters who can't support a large enough stone to keep them alive. Some of the back ones might be in the stone, but generally they are out there at 12/14. |
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Post by Azuresun on Apr 10, 2017 23:16:20 GMT
Looking over at Fennblades as a guy who doesn't play them I wouldn't call 12/14 Victim stats....But I would call them WAAAAAAY overpriced stats for its cost. They don't hit hard, their ability is situational. Vengeance is nice but the stats are quite-sub par for the cost. All comparable "Hit Hard" infantry hits harder or is more survivable. Do Trolls have some kind of super great support stuff that I don't know about? Locally, anything under ARM 18 is victim stats. Too many Storm Lances and boosted sprays. |
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Post by gobber on Apr 11, 2017 3:54:26 GMT
Definitely not in contention for the worst since the new theme brought posse back, but while we're listing factions whose infantry is struggling minions deserve a mention. Overall faction power is doing just fine, but that's mainly riding on the strength of our battlegroups and the super friends.
In their respective theme, brigands and posse are each quite reasonable. I wish posse and commandos were designed to be more usable out of theme, but we theoretically get new themed releases to make up for it. Nyss are almost there, but 19 points without a theme puts their opportunity cost out of whack. A theme or small tweak would put them back in business. I have no issues with the bellows, razorback, or shamblers (who just want for cheaper infantry in our lists). Blythe & Bull and Lynus & Edrea are easily forgotten for a reason, but this is mostly about the actual combat units.
Everything else (slaughterhousers/ambushers/croaks/commandos/bone grinders/boomhowlers) seems to have issues justifying itself. This mostly comes down to not being able to deliver themselves in a faction where most casters can't help more than one unit at a time (other than Rask who's got way better uses of his time). They're all spd5, in the vicinity of 12/14, 1hp (typically w/tough) and cost 15-17 points for a max unit. Slaughterhousers and Bone grinders don't take buffs well since you're usually only delivering 2 or 3. I really wish bone grinders would lose weaponmaster vs beasts; It makes them far too hot-or-cold and could justify them becoming a cheap chaff unit we otherwise entirely lack. Otherwise, I'm not sure the rest of them necessarily need rules changes. A small point trim, new theme forces, new releases like attachments/support solos or a warlock with a cloud wall, fog of war, or solid ground could get these back on the field quick.
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Post by robobengt on Apr 11, 2017 5:25:08 GMT
If you can't get fennblades to get work done, you're either running them into a list that's designed to take them out at extreme ranges, or you are playing them wrong. They almost always get their points back. Err, no. The "you just aren't playing them right" is some nonsense. I've played them into nearly every faction. They have victim stats. They can kill other infantry, if they survive the trip, and maybe a light. So can pretty much anything else. The best I've ever done with them was against Minions, and that faction isn't exactly blowing up the meta either. The Fenns have worse than victim stats: anything pointed their way will kill them. They are also expensive for what they do. Unit/ca + fell caller minimum is 25 points. I see plenty of people running them with the kithkar and chronicler as well, trying to leverage something out of the unit, which puts them at 33 pts. For that big an investment, they should beat face. They do not. They get in the way, and kill five or so models before they are whittled down and become insignificant. Now, maybe your meta is filled with people that don't bring guns, MAT 7 vengeance weapon masters, sprays, or AOEs. In that case, they probably do seem pretty good. I don't disagree that 12/14 are shitty stats and that they will die. But if you are not facing all the guns, in which case you don't bring them, positioning is often enough to get most of them up there to do the work that is expected. On your second turn, they will charge something. |
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Post by phantasmagorium on Apr 11, 2017 14:26:51 GMT
Probably. Like the Krielstone giving them +2 ARM & +1 STR, or Madrak2 making them weaponmasters, or Horgle giving them +2 ARM (stacking with the stone) and immunity to knockdown, or Grissel2 just being Grissel2, etc. This is a really pointless argument so I don't know why I'm getting involved, but i will say. Fennblades are rarely ever in the stone aura. They are a vanguard unit and they run mostly with infantry casters who can't support a large enough stone to keep them alive. Some of the back ones might be in the stone, but generally they are out there at 12/14. They're in the aura the turn it matters, and then they've fired off, done their thing, and any who survive are a bonus. Besides, he asked. |
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zich
Junior Strategist
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Post by zich on Apr 11, 2017 14:34:36 GMT
Going to ARM16 under the Stone seems fine. That's basically Bane Knights, complete with Vengeance and Reach. Fennblades hit a bit less hard and threat farther. That sounds like a fair deal to me. I can see the point of 20p with UA being a bit more expensive than they should be, 18p seems like a better fit. But they seem workable.
Trolls need buffs, but not to their strong stuff.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 12, 2017 3:19:32 GMT
......I don't see it. The stone is slow. It means it slows you down if you want protection. They don't hit a bit less hard. They hit ALLOT less hard.
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Post by trollsareblue on Apr 12, 2017 8:32:38 GMT
Man, am I ever tired of people telling me every problem in trolls is "fixed" by the stone. Unit sucks? THE STONE! Beasts overcosted and pillow-fisted? THE STONE!!!! Apparently that motherFiretrucker has an effective area of the table, is always on, costs nothing to use, and is impossible to kill or counter.
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Post by phantasmagorium on Apr 12, 2017 14:25:32 GMT
Man, am I ever tired of people telling me every problem in trolls is "fixed" by the stone. Unit sucks? THE STONE! Beasts overcosted and pillow-fisted? THE STONE!!!! Apparently that motherFiretrucker has an effective area of the table, is always on, costs nothing to use, and is impossible to kill or counter. Well, first of all, some context. He said "unless trolls have some killer support I don't know about". The stone is one of the best support pieces in the game and will always be relevant when responding to a question like that. But secondly, the stone will always be where you want it to be when it matters. You can turn it on, run, and have the Stone proper leave formation to put the aura where it needs to be. That's why stone is always relevant to the discussion. This complaint is basically the same as Cygnar players saying that they don't want to hear about their stuff being balanced with Arcane Shield in mind. |
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Apr 12, 2017 15:17:08 GMT
Man, am I ever tired of people telling me every problem in trolls is "fixed" by the stone. Unit sucks? THE STONE! Beasts overcosted and pillow-fisted? THE STONE!!!! Apparently that motherFiretrucker has an effective area of the table, is always on, costs nothing to use, and is impossible to kill or counter. Well, first of all, some context. He said "unless trolls have some killer support I don't know about". The stone is one of the best support pieces in the game and will always be relevant when responding to a question like that. But secondly, the stone will always be where you want it to be when it matters. You can turn it on, run, and have the Stone proper leave formation to put the aura where it needs to be. That's why stone is always relevant to the discussion. This complaint is basically the same as Cygnar players saying that they don't want to hear about their stuff being balanced with Arcane Shield in mind. The stone is definitely not one of the best support pieces in the game.
Would you take it in several other factions? Absolutely, but that's not how the game works. Trolls are balanced around the stone and it's ended up as an anchor round Troll player's necks. It's expensive and in reality stops Trolls from having meaningful arm buffs. Our beasts and units are costed as if the stone is always there, but good opponents have little trouble dropping the aura.
It also stops troll casters from actually casting spells as they spend their first 1+ turn filling the thing. When trolls go second it's super sad.
It's also got a small radius as most casters can only afford the Min stone nowadays and trolls are all on medium or large bases so you don't actually get much in the aura.
Compare it to other faction's support piece: - Junior is better and cheaper - Choir is great and cheaper - Joe is insane even with the nerf. - Arcanists are amazing and cheaper - The Corollary is insanely good. - Mercs have access to the widest variety of good support solos in the game - Circle have stones which are still excellent and cheaper - Legion still combine great fury removal with offensive output on Forsaken - Skorne have beast handlers which Trolls would kill for.
Every faction has great support. The stone isn't even one of the best now. Especially when it comes at the cost of no armour buffs in factions (Except Horgle2 which is new) No other faction is paying 9-12 points for a small part of their army to have the same armour as the other slow armour factions without any of the offensive capability.
There is a reason everyone is saying Trolls are in an awful place and the stone is a huge part of it. The poor offensive and defensive capabilities of our infantry is the other huge part. Go look at Discount games and look for Troll results since WTC. One 3rd place finish!
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Post by phantasmagorium on Apr 12, 2017 18:37:08 GMT
Well, first of all, some context. He said "unless trolls have some killer support I don't know about". The stone is one of the best support pieces in the game and will always be relevant when responding to a question like that. But secondly, the stone will always be where you want it to be when it matters. You can turn it on, run, and have the Stone proper leave formation to put the aura where it needs to be. That's why stone is always relevant to the discussion. This complaint is basically the same as Cygnar players saying that they don't want to hear about their stuff being balanced with Arcane Shield in mind. No other faction is paying 9-12 points for a small part of their army to have the same armour as the other slow armour factions without any of the offensive capability. At the point where you're making this argument, it is not worth having this conversation with you. |
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