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Post by trollsareblue on Apr 12, 2017 18:54:51 GMT
No other faction is paying 9-12 points for a small part of their army to have the same armour as the other slow armour factions without any of the offensive capability. At the point where you're making this argument, it is not worth having this conversation with you. So... you claim that the Stone(!!!) is awesome, but are unwilling to discuss its points? Or make comparisons to other "must-haves?" At that point, you are back to discussing the infantry on its own merits, and we return to them being schlock.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 12, 2017 19:22:45 GMT
Joe is pretty great, but at this point in time I would say he's balanced around the infantry he supports having the defenses of wet tissue paper. They are for sure awesome infantry, but these guys aren't elite troopers.
Beast Wise Trolls has average Defenses (Identical to Cygnarian stuff).
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Apr 12, 2017 22:18:31 GMT
Joe is pretty great, but at this point in time I would say he's balanced around the infantry he supports having the defenses of wet tissue paper. They are for sure awesome infantry, but these guys aren't elite troopers. Beast Wise Trolls has average Defenses (Identical to Cygnarian stuff). Cygnar are one of the best shooting factions in the game and yet they can skew armor better than trolls. Don't believe me, build a Striker 1 double colossal list, with it's 2 arm 22 Stormwalls that are arm 27 for one turn. The fact is that having your whole army get extra armor sounds nice in theory, but that isn't the way this game is played at a high level. You send pieces in to piece trade and you once you know what you're doing it's all about not over commiting. In a situation like that The targeted arm buff of something like Junior is better than the stone. (Though obviously it has other drawbacks. Such as Purification or Spell Piercer) But when we're considering two factions side by side. It seems strange that Cygnar and Trolls can effectively skew armor to a comparable if not better level when you consider: - Cygnar is one of the best shooting factions in the game - Cygnar caster have better spell lists. - Cygnar is just as happy skewing defense instead, which Trolls can't do - Cygnar jacks are cheaper and yet often more survivable - Cygnar overall is a faster force. - Cygnar has way more access to control than Trolls Troll heavies, can't even 1 round the average collosal, with rage and the stone on them in MK3. What exactly is it that Trolls do well, becauseI'm dying to find out!
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Post by grabsnikk on Apr 12, 2017 22:30:04 GMT
Same as most of is, I struggle to see where Troll's place is in the meta. We used to be a faction that asked a question to the opponent, "Can you deal with this?"
This is no longer the case in Mk3. To add insult to injury though, we don't really have answers to most of the top casters either.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 12, 2017 22:36:43 GMT
I'm not necessarily saying that Cygnar Can't Skew better. I'm just saying that this is a support issue.
Anyway and SHOULD a Beast be able to one round a colossal? That's just a question mind you.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Apr 12, 2017 22:51:29 GMT
I'm not necessarily saying that Cygnar Can't Skew better. I'm just saying that this is a support issue. Anyway and SHOULD a Beast be able to one round a colossal? That's just a question mind you. it used to be one of the few things mk2 trolls had going for them. An enraged prodded skorne beast will. trolls are slow and are supposed to take the alpha on the chin. if they dont kill a colossal without buffs or feat they have nothing.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 13, 2017 3:16:25 GMT
Joe is pretty great, but at this point in time I would say he's balanced around the infantry he supports having the defenses of wet tissue paper. They are for sure awesome infantry, but these guys aren't elite troopers. Beast Wise Trolls has average Defenses (Identical to Cygnarian stuff). Cygnar are one of the best shooting factions in the game and yet they can skew armor better than trolls. Don't believe me, build a Striker 1 double colossal list, with it's 2 arm 22 Stormwalls that are arm 27 for one turn. The fact is that having your whole army get extra armor sounds nice in theory, but that isn't the way this game is played at a high level. You send pieces in to piece trade and you once you know what you're doing it's all about not over commiting. In a situation like that The targeted arm buff of something like Junior is better than the stone. (Though obviously it has other drawbacks. Such as Purification or Spell Piercer) But when we're considering two factions side by side. It seems strange that Cygnar and Trolls can effectively skew armor to a comparable if not better level when you consider: - Cygnar is one of the best shooting factions in the game - Cygnar caster have better spell lists. - Cygnar is just as happy skewing defense instead, which Trolls can't do - Cygnar jacks are cheaper and yet often more survivable - Cygnar overall is a faster force. - Cygnar has way more access to control than Trolls Troll heavies, can't even 1 round the average collosal, with rage and the stone on them in MK3. What exactly is it that Trolls do well, becauseI'm dying to find out! I run this list. You'd be surprised how much of the game casually removes or Ignores arcane shield. A skin and moans can do 84.5 damage to a Hurricane with 56 boxes. Grymkin, legion and circle casually ignore arcane shield and an arm 22 Stormwall is formidable, but can be taken down by 2 buffed heavies which (considering the points cost investment) isn't great. Im running under the assumption currently that arm 22 is easily countered in the meta a d if I bring a colossal, it's about preventing people from being able to engage with it on their terms rather than relying on armour.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 13, 2017 3:16:29 GMT
1) Your damage calculation for Skorne beasts is off: An enraged, prodded Bronzeback (the best damage/points in Skorne) deals about 45-50p of damage to an ARM20 model (which seems to be the gold standard nowadays). Or 30-35p to an Arcane Shielded Stormwall. Or about 40p to a Mountain King under Stone.
Not one-rounding a colossal/gargantuan without caster input is fine.
2) There are lists in the meta that do not do traditional piece trades, like Amon or Harkevich. And once Weapon Masters make their way back onto the tables in force we will see a different kind of those. Single target buffs like Arcane Shield are disadvantaged in this situation.
3) Trolls can skew defense, Calandra exists. But that would require an unconventional list.
Trolls need help. But not everything in your faction is literally the worst ever unplayable garbgage. Don't descent into that attitude and the whining that comes with it. I've been there, I play Skorne. It's not healthy and not useful either.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 13, 2017 3:21:02 GMT
1) Your damage calculation for Skorne beasts is off: An enraged, prodded Bronzeback (the best damage/points in Skorne) deals about 45-50p of damage to an ARM20 model (which seems to be the gold standard nowadays). Or 30-35p to an Arcane Shielded Stormwall. Or about 40p to a Mountain King under Stone. Not one-rounding a colossal/gargantuan without caster input is fine. 2) There are lists in the meta that do not do traditional piece trades, like Amon or Harkevich. And once Weapon Masters make their way back onto the tables in force we will see a different kind of those. Single target buffs like Arcane Shield are disadvantaged in this situation. 3) Trolls can skew defense, Calandra exists. But that would require an unconventional list. Trolls need help. But not everything in your faction is literally the worst ever unplayable garbgage. Don't descent into that attitude and the whining that comes with it. I've been there, I play Skorne. It's not healthy and not useful either. We aren't adding ignite or last Stand or anything to those numbers? I'm pretty sure skorne has a couple of other damage buffs, too.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 13, 2017 3:43:56 GMT
Aren't we adding ignite or last Stand or anything to those numbers? I'm pretty sure skorne has a couple of other damage buffs, too. Usually, it's a good idea not to add casters into a scenario unless the spell is really overpowered and present in many of the casters (Like Iron Flesh MKII in Khador) otherwise then your just playing matchups with other casters. I know some units only really shine with specific Caster support, but those should get a big IF under them.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 13, 2017 3:47:49 GMT
Well yes. If you add X2's Ignite+Feat the Bronzeback absolutely does the job. I'm talking about caster-independent numbers, as those are what was referenced in an earlier post.
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Post by trollsareblue on Apr 13, 2017 6:31:48 GMT
Trolls need help. But not everything in your faction is literally the worst ever unplayable garbgage. Don't descent into that attitude and the whining that comes with it. I've been there, I play Skorne. It's not healthy and not useful either. I agree, but the infantry is still pretty much crap.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Apr 13, 2017 7:33:41 GMT
The best thing about the Krielstone is that it's a buff you can't ignore or get rid of short of actually killing the unit. Buffs like that are rare, generally reserved for feats, not cheap support units.
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Post by trollsareblue on Apr 13, 2017 7:43:23 GMT
The best thing about the Krielstone is that it's a buff you can't ignore or get rid of short of actually killing the unit. Buffs like that are rare, generally reserved for feats, not cheap support units. Nope. You can kill the stone bearer and if your attack prevents healing, the bubble vanishes for the turn. Killing grunts also makes it shrink, so it isn't really that hard to isolate a model you want dead if you need to do so. It's no wonder people think the Stone(!!!) is amazing if they don't actually know how it works.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Apr 13, 2017 7:47:14 GMT
Trolls need help. But not everything in your faction is literally the worst ever unplayable garbgage. Don't descent into that attitude and the whining that comes with it. I've been there, I play Skorne. It's not healthy and not useful either. I never said it was. You're assuming, because I took offense to someone calling the Krielstone "One of the best support pieces in the game" that I hate everything in Trolls. That's a wrong assumption, in fact I run a weekly blog where I discuss underused Troll pieces and how they might be worth a second look. That would be pointless if I hated the faction and everything in it.
You've chosen the most efficient beast for some reason and even then, it still scraps a Judicator on average. No Troll heavy scraps a judicator on average without caster support.
Also my point was more that Cygnar get to play a much better ranged game and still have better arm than Trolls where it matters. Whether or not the Cygnar list is considered high enough to be an actual skew is less important. It's still secondary to your main battle plan. You have to accept that Trolls being a faction designed around counter punching are worse at choosing the engagement on their own terms?
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