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Post by toconut on Oct 22, 2017 0:11:49 GMT
Makeda2 MoW loses most of the times against ghost fleet. You can stop recursion but you can't kill the blackbanes. They will either straight kill makeda (run until they surround her then charge if you have no Soulward) or kill most cats. There's nothing you can do about it and it's just game over. It's also super easy to die against denny once you have used enough stay death (pistol wraiths, wraith engine and hellslinger+blackbanes are more than enough to burn through all the fury during feat turn).
I am trying to build a list against ghost fleet in MoW with morghoul3 (blackbanes get blinded) but the easiest answer so far is hexeris2 or rasheth. I'd recommend double extoller for rasheth in WoD or Hexeris2 beast heavy in IW
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demonic
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Post by demonic on Oct 22, 2017 4:39:10 GMT
Shamans can remove denny's annoying upkeeps and force her to be low on focus if she wants to keep them up. Unfortunately, shamans can't be taken in MoW. This is why I recommended Exhalted, where paired with the right caster, you can chew up just about any cryx list. Krea can put them at armor 19 against shooting, 1 unit can get an additional 2 from Zaal who will also be giving out free souls for boosted damage rolls and ghost shielding hakaar. Zaal1 has ghost sight, which allows him to stay in the back field with ease. Since you are turning fury into souls, you can more easily use souls for extra attacks and boosted attacks, but I'd only want Hakaar to be spending his souls when he's killing something big. Still, Denny's feat is a big issue, just not enough of one to warrant as much concern as you are all giving. I've played against Denny1, experienced the combo of parasite and pirates, but properly utilizing your tool kit is plenty enough to have an upper edge. After all, if they keep moving back you keep scoring on scenario and Denny becomes more vulnerable. You can keep bashing away, but your fears of ghost fleet is probably what's killing you. Speed debuffs that don't exist on your turn are a non issue, pow 10 (or even 12) vs arm 18 (when parasited) isn't enough of a threat to warrant keeping your models back.
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zich
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Post by zich on Oct 22, 2017 8:27:03 GMT
I'm not seeing Zaal as a good solution here. He dies way too easily. As pointed out above, Hexy, Rasheth, Morghoul2, Zaadesh2 will probably work better. And even then it will be a massive uphill battle.
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granor
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Post by granor on Oct 22, 2017 14:13:47 GMT
Krea can put them at armor 19 against shooting, Ok now that all the themes are out could someone please explain to me why immortals are better than karax? Karax are arm 19 vs shooting and melee all the time. They cost 11 points instead of 15. If you bring the UA for the immortals now you can have the points to get an aggy or krea behind the karax getting them up to arm 21. And by the way you still save points (19 vs 18 or 17). The karax now have RFP because of themes and come with tycoms. Are we barking up the wrong tree here? Can skorne "cryx harder" by bringing karax instead of immortals? p.s. I totally understand if the answer is "I don't want to play karax. I want to play immortals."
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zich
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Post by zich on Oct 22, 2017 16:30:33 GMT
Immortals do have better attacks stats and an actually good CA. But Karax spam is probably very strong. Zaal1 should work really well with them. Or you play them with Xerxis1, move DefWard to the foremost surviving unit and try to clock your opponent.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
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Post by demonic on Oct 22, 2017 17:55:35 GMT
1. Karax are living models, activating Cryx abilities 2. Karax are not available in Exhalted theme 3. Shamans are not available in MoW 4. Immortals can gain incorporeal for the turn after a few of them die 5. Immortals have innate magic weapons Immortals are NOT a replacement for what Karax do, as Karax are still our best trencher models per point. However, without shamans, their effectiveness is more determined by your enemy than their stat cards. Notice how everyone is so afraid of enemy upkeeps? It's rightfully so, but when you can take the cyclops shaman, the usefulness of enemy upkeeps is greatly nulled. Since you can't take shamans in MoW, it means your lists are much more vulnerable to their effects. zich If you actually play Zaal1 properly, he cannot be sniped off the board until much later into the game when other casters would also be easily kill-able. This is something you learn through actual gameplay though, not through theory. His ghost sight makes terrain null when targeting his own units with spells and targeting enemy units. Using terrain as a screen and keeping him as far back as possible is more than enough to make him survivable through normal play. Putting a shield guard next to him in case your opponents have the ability to see through obstacles as well is generally preferred. Other non-durable casters who lack the ghost sight advantage need to be placed in more vulnerable locations, leading to the unfortunate early death due to easy sniping.
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zich
Junior Strategist
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Post by zich on Oct 22, 2017 18:36:33 GMT
I am interested in how you are using terrain against Ghost Shot and SPD7 arc nodes, but if that works for you, fine by me.
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granor
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Post by granor on Oct 22, 2017 20:48:46 GMT
1. Karax are living models, activating Cryx abilities I assume you are suggesting that immortals do not have this weakness but they do. Immortals count as living models when they produce souls so cryx soul collection works just fine on them unless you bring zaal. 2. Karax are not available in Exhalted theme The karax now have RFP because of themes and come with tycoms. Yes the question is as a list is karax spam better than immortal spam. I am not suggesting that karax can be in exalted or that the two units should be mixed out of theme. 3. Shamans are not available in MoW I would think bringing eilish would solve this problem but this is one of the weaknesses of MoW 4. Immortals can gain incorporeal for the turn after a few of them die Karax get pathfinder from tycoms in theme. Are you saying that assassination is the best way for exalted to win? That feels like a bad first plan win condition. 5. Immortals have innate magic weapons MoW can bring soul wards and you only need the leader of a 10 man CMA to have a magic weapon to hit the Wraith engine. Other incorporeal units would be a problem but given to innate RFP because of the theme it feels like the karax are advantaged here. Immortals do have better attacks stats Given CMA I would say karax have fewer attacks not worse stats and because they are much cheaper I would suggest karax are not as far behind as you would first think. Over all I am trying to DOJO, with only play experience with karax, that karax spam in MoW is a better cryx drop than an exalted immortal spam list. Although, I am starting to think MoW is not the best cryx drop Skorne has in the first place but that requires much more testing.
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demonic
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Post by demonic on Oct 23, 2017 4:58:45 GMT
Immortals have something called "Soul Vessal" if you read really carefully you'll see where soul vessal says "as if it were a living model," meaning that they are not actually living models, just that they produce souls as one would. You use Zaal1 or 2 in order to dictate where those souls go so that the enemy cannot benefit from them either.
Since we were specifically talking about countering ghost fleet, I merely gave an answer dictating which is better into ghost fleet.
Shamans bring a lot more to the table than eilish. Eilish does hurt denny when she casts a negative buff, but it's no where near enough to keep her from doing it, especially when it means turning all of your models into grunts instead of just 2 or 3.
You can only have 1 order up on a unit at a time (even if it's from 2 different tycoms), either 2 additional inches on a full advance or pathfinder. Considering the pace you have to be going to counter ghost fleet (kill off their cannon crews and black bane ASAP) I'd think that pathfinder would be more of an afterthought. If you WANT to take down shield wall for a turn that's fine, but then you'll have to revoke 4 of your armor, the same armor you lose whenever you attack. As for giving immortals incorporeal, that's actually more because of their slow basic movement and how much they are hindered by terrain features when they attempt to spread out. Exhalted theme is actually more of a scenario first, assassination later type theme. Using the shepard to assassinate is something that's decided on according to how the battle is going.
Soul Wards are perfect targets for pistol wraiths, especially when they run the wraith engines. Kill Rhadiem and the soulwards and suddenly your only access to magical becomes you caster x.x Ghost fleet isn't as heavy as some cryx lists are when it comes to incorporeal units, but it's important to always have them ready.
The only issue I've ever had using immortals is cost to productivity. PS 13 while being that slow does not warrant their high model cost, especially because they only shine with specific solos and specific casters. If they were PS 15 I'd completely understand, but with todays armor skew, 13 doesn't cut it except against certain lists and certain factions. They suck just as much as any single point model against corrosive attacks and that is why I mentioned her corrosive spray as being the one thing that'd really hinder them into a Denny1 ghost fleet.
As I've been looking over casters to prove a point on wednesday (if a cryx player is open x.x the increase of magical weapons has made many cryx players flee to other factions), I'm not sure if zaal1 or 2 would actually be better. It seems that with Zaal2 my attack power would go up, with more beast points and his spell direction, but zaal1 has ghost sight and *drool* Kovaas.
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Post by dessert hydra on Oct 23, 2017 8:28:41 GMT
Trying a different take on the problem how about Makeda 1 MoW with Cats might be a good answer. The below has great assassination resilience against magic and ranged assassinations, excellent assassination potential with Molik and Jackhammer and an great counter feat.
Theme: Masters of War 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Archdomina Makeda - WB: +29 - Molik Karn - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19) - Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Scarab Pack - PC: 10
Extoller Soulward - PC: 3 Mortitheurge Willbreaker - PC: 4 Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor - PC: 5
Praetorian Ferox - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Praetorian Swordsmen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 - Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0 Legends of Halaak - Valgesh, CIdaar & J'Deth: 8 Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer - Tyrant & Bearer: 0 Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2
THEME: Masters of War
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skormedlover87
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 23, 2017 19:31:04 GMT
Trying a different take on the problem how about Makeda 1 MoW with Cats might be a good answer. The below has great assassination resilience against magic and ranged assassinations, excellent assassination potential with Molik and Jackhammer and an great counter feat. Theme: Masters of War 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Archdomina Makeda - WB: +29 - Molik Karn - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19) - Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Scarab Pack - PC: 10 Extoller Soulward - PC: 3 Mortitheurge Willbreaker - PC: 4 Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor - PC: 5 Praetorian Ferox - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Praetorian Swordsmen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 - Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0 Legends of Halaak - Valgesh, CIdaar & J'Deth: 8 Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer - Tyrant & Bearer: 0 Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2 THEME: Masters of War That's what I've been saying. I think Mak1 is our best play into the Ghost Fleet/Dark Host combo. She's not the best into either of those lists, but she's the closest to a 1 list drop for both. Personally I'd replace Swordsmen with Cetrati+Vorkesh. That sweet, sweet Sacred Ward is a real pain to deal with for Cryx. Denny pirates basically can't break the unit.
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Post by elladan52 on Oct 23, 2017 19:42:31 GMT
Trying a different take on the problem how about Makeda 1 MoW with Cats might be a good answer. The below has great assassination resilience against magic and ranged assassinations, excellent assassination potential with Molik and Jackhammer and an great counter feat. Theme: Masters of War 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Archdomina Makeda - WB: +29 - Molik Karn - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19) - Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Scarab Pack - PC: 10 Extoller Soulward - PC: 3 Mortitheurge Willbreaker - PC: 4 Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor - PC: 5 Praetorian Ferox - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Praetorian Swordsmen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 - Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0 Legends of Halaak - Valgesh, CIdaar & J'Deth: 8 Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer - Tyrant & Bearer: 0 Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2 THEME: Masters of War That's what I've been saying. I think Mak1 is our best play into the Ghost Fleet/Dark Host combo. She's not the best into either of those lists, but she's the closest to a 1 list drop for both. Personally I'd replace Swordsmen with Cetrati+Vorkesh. That sweet, sweet Sacred Ward is a real pain to deal with for Cryx. Denny pirates basically can't break the unit. Is that from experience, or theory? My theory says the potential for -4 armor on the feat turn is pretty rough.
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skormedlover87
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Desperately searching for days off to game...
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 23, 2017 21:18:38 GMT
Theory-ish. I've played into GF before with a similar list pre theme. It went ok, Cetrati are a HUGE pain for Denny as long as you keep Vorkesh alive. I've also played a list that functioned similarly to Coven Dark Host with it (Coven Storm Lances in a whose the boss Jackhammer is a pretty good answer to their feat. Both lists should be more effective in theme than they were then. Edit: I also want to say, I'm approaching this from a mindset of having Rasheth WoD as the pair. Fatty makes Denny unhappy with no arcing and counter feating but turtles ought to scare Bane Cav. I assume I'll get Coven and I would drop Makeda1. So the list is BETTER into Dark Host, but I'm comfortable into Ghost Fleet.
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Post by prpreece on Oct 24, 2017 15:08:22 GMT
if you can keep cats alive during their feat turn against denny its a game you are disadvantaged but its 40/60 not unwinable by any stretch of imagination
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 24, 2017 15:14:00 GMT
If you are gonna play double cats just be aware of Scourge of the Broken Coast, the Hags Entropic Force just shuts down Stay Death
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