boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 18, 2017 0:36:38 GMT
Here's the basic thought. With Dash+Tyrant, they can walk 11", Jump 5", threat 2", for a total of 18". This means that if either Denny or Egregore are in range to feat, they can be attacked. You can park them in a Krea Bubble, making shooting a risky proposition if with Dodge. You can put Orin in the pocket, negating Crippling Grasp, Parasite, or other critical spells. With theme benefit, you can rfp what you hit. Against Coven, you can walk in with Parry on a counter-feat and jump, negating the Coven delivery. Finally +1 to first choice is always good when you have massive threat range.
I don't see either in my meta, but this sounds like the right tool kit for both of them.
For those with GF/DH experience, does this measure up?
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didder
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Post by didder on Oct 18, 2017 0:49:53 GMT
It is in many ways a good answer, but there are some pitfalls to avoid. The egregore, for example, should not be attacked unless the witches are very low on focus. Otherwise, it can divide the damage among the witches, and each witch can spend a focus to reduce their portion of damage by 5. A losing proposition almost always.
Against Denny1, be aware that her feat specifically prevents charging, and due to the rules of jump, also prevents jumping. An 11" walk is still very effective though.
With either warcaster, CRA ghost shots don't care a whole lot about paralytic aura, especially if debuffs successfully land on Makeda, or she gets knocked down. Instead, I'd recommend Brutes. Shield guard is actually really good against CRAs, but one alone isn't enough. Denny1 does use knockdown alot too, so the safeguard animus is great for that. Also legion and Grymkin have really easy access to wraithbane, which ignores paralytic aura entirely.
One thing makeda2 doesn't have is magical weapons. They're not the most important thing, but if you have none into the Wraith Engine, blackbaines, or gremlin swarms from Grymkin, it makes Makeda struggle a lot to have scenario pressure. Orin, an extoller, and marketh might need to be included. Marketh can spell slave prostration, and give a free upkeep once in a while. Prostrations not the greatest, but it's not a thing Makeda will ever cast, where it gets decent milage under marketh. I'd take out radheim to fit some of these tech answers in, since double cats and double will breaker arent optional
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 18, 2017 1:02:36 GMT
Foegot about the Jump gimp from the Withering. Good point.
A nested Orin can negate the Scourge if it comes (though of course that's contingent on him being alive and safe in range.) As for the Egregore, it camping focus instead of spells is a good thing. A boosted kittie attack can blow through that stack real fast, and that feat doesn't cripple jump. Covering every landing spot within 2" is not something that any Cryx player wants to do with Banes.
The idea that prompted me to post was that most factions struggle to come up with a list that can handle the tech for both. The magic weapons is an issue with Blackbanes (and WE every other turn I suppose), but Denny is always the weak link. If you have layered Kats, perhaps that would work. If she approaches to 14" to get the front cats, that means she's 3" inches outside of walk. If you put Kats 4" behind those, she can't feat on those without being within walk range of the front ones. Granted, The Withering will be on them, but if you negate Crippling Grasp, boosted attacks can still hit her, and it doesn't take many.
I think there's game with this, but since I'm our resident Cryx player on the side, I don't have any experience.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 18, 2017 2:59:11 GMT
Want to pop in and note Mak2 cares not at all about CRA shots because of Storm Rager saying NO to combined attacks of all varieties. Individually they're much less threatening.
Also, it would be helpful if you could give us some info concerning your whole list. There's wiggle room for a third unit in there and what it is turns out to be fairly important. Like Cetrati+Vorkesh. Denny hates them, being immune to her spells and durable enough to survive pirates.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
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Post by boozy on Oct 18, 2017 3:12:40 GMT
"Want to pop in and note Mak2 cares not at all about CRA shots because of Storm Rager saying NO to combined attacks of all varieties. Individually they're much less threatening.
Also, it would be helpful if you could give us some info concerning your whole list. There's wiggle room for a third unit in there and what it is turns out to be fairly important. Like Cetrati+Vorkesh. Denny hates them, being immune to her spells and durable enough to survive pirates." No particular list, I'm just thinking Makeda2 Jumpcats in MoW is likely the backbone for a drop against both Ghost Fleet and Dark Host. The best shape would be something we'd have to develop, with trial and error. It seems to me the core tools to negate the worst they have to offer is there, and the fine tuning is what is needed. Thought the forum would be interested to work it, considering how often most other factions complain about it.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 18, 2017 5:54:58 GMT
Dark host should be doable. Mak's feat basically counters Coven's and Cats can kill Riders semi-reliably. I'm not seeing this working into GF wwithout guns and with extremely few magical weapons.
Both casters can stay very safe from the cats so you are stuck playing scenario+attrition, which is miserable with Wraith Engines and Machine Wraiths.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 18, 2017 8:27:58 GMT
If we're talking Masters of War, this is probably a better solution: conflictchamber.com/#c9201b_-0Z6I6r6U4x4y6v6vcv5P6K676a6c6d6hSkorne Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Masters of War (Rasheth 1) Dominar Rasheth [+28] - Agonizer [6] - Archidon [10] - Basilisk Krea [7] - Cyclops Brute [8] Extoller Soulward [3] Extoller Soulward [3] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4] Cataphract Cetrati (max) [18] - Tyrant Vorkesh [0(6)] Praetorian Ferox (max) [20] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Praetorian Swordsmen (max) [13] - Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard [0(4)] Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer [0(6)] It doesn't have Stay Death, but Cryx has tons of Grievous Wounds anyway. It does however offer way more magical damage, immunity to the assassination, protection from channelling and a brick that even Cryx probably can't crack.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 18, 2017 15:33:08 GMT
Time to open the Dojo I guess conflictchamber.com/#c9201b_-0Z446U6U4xj66v6vcv6y5P6Kfs5U676hSkorne Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Masters of War (Makeda 2) Supreme Archdomina Makeda [+27] - Archidon [10] - Archidon [10] - Basilisk Krea [7] Eilish Garrity, the Occultist [5] Extoller Soulward [3] Extoller Soulward [3] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4] Tyrant Rhadeim [9] Cataphract Cetrati (max) [18] - Tyrant Vorkesh [0(6)] Legends of Halaak [8] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5] Praetorian Ferox (max) [20] Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer [0(6)] So I run ferox for speed and make up for the lack of guns in the list and of course willbreaker comes with. Stay death of course. Rhadeim gives me a fast magic weapon to kill solos and dodge on the ferox cetrati give me another magic weapon a unit to hide mac2 behind and a unit that is spell immune Legends are just hard hitting and fast Soulwards are to give archidons magic to kill the Wraith Engines (I don't think you need 2) Krea is just because mac2 has 27 wb points Eilish gets rid of crippling grasp, curse of shadows and gives a magic gun. tycom is because free models. I don't think 2 soulwards are needed you can drop one to make the krea a 3rd archidon, or you can swap eilish to hutchuck and take swam gobbers. Dropping the krea to a aggy and the soulward could give you another willbreaker to tough the legends. Anyway there is a little wiggle room here. I have not played this list yet this is dojo only but take a look at lormahordes.freeforums.net/post/58813/thread for a similar list.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 18, 2017 15:36:54 GMT
I'd like someone to answer a very simple question: Why would you play Makeda2 into Cryx? She does nothing that is good into Cryx. MoW? Sure. Ferox? Why not. But Makeda2? What for?
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 18, 2017 15:51:37 GMT
right now I am playing her for stay death because it is a powerful combo with ferox that needs a specific answer (grievous wounds) So I don't play more than 1 game a week most of the time and I need a base level on how strong this list is. Once I get that understanding and run into a cryx list that runs the grevious wounds I will decide if I want to run a different caster, power through the matchup anyway, or run something different (rasheth winds comes to mind)
So I am still in experiment mode myself but I have no data saying cryx can easily turn stay death off. edit: Not saying they don't have pieces that have grievous wounds. I am just saying I don't know how the lists will actually play into mac2 and if the match is super tiled in cryx's favor or not.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 18, 2017 16:57:33 GMT
I know what Stay Death does. In fact I have played a ton of Makeda2 already and can assure you that it is very strong indeed. Before MoW the matchup was beyond horrible. Their Grievous on the Stalkers is a part of the issue, but our lack of relevant Magical Weapons and the amount of mid-quality attacks GF can put out are additional ones. The RfP issue is somewhat solved by MoW, but that is after all only one component of DennyFleet and Cryx in general.
So I'm asking the question: If we are devoting one of our lists to play into Cryx, why not go all the way? Why not take a caster that counters their tricks instead of one which is countered by them? Rasheth certainly is such a caster. Maybe Hexy2 is aswell. Hexy1 might be, but probably not in this theme.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 18, 2017 17:03:36 GMT
Ok you will have to walk me through this. If I am facing ghost fleet and dark host or black industries how would you build the Rasheth list or hexy2 and what are you looking at for counter play?
Rasheth gets castigate that what you looking to for tiling the match in your favor? You still playing MOW or you looking at something else?
Not sure what you are trying with hexy2 either. Can you explain your ideas here or a different thread?
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 18, 2017 19:23:09 GMT
For lists I'd go with something like the one I posted above. Will definitely try that one out once I get the last few missing pieces painted. But let's walk through it:
Rasheth - Castigate is brilliant as you said. Breath of Corruption is amazing as well. It can be used to keep stuff out of melee - both Bane Warriors and Pirates of mostly any flavor. It also threatens assassination to some degree. Killing a single Witch with 2x Breath or even 2x SunderSpirit is far from impossible (boosted 14 kills a witch through her focus, but it might be good enough if you get a second spell or more attacks on her). His feat obviously helps with attrition and gives Denny identity issues. All of this is tried and true to a degree, as Rasheth has been played a lot into Cryx with Winds of Death. And by better players than me. Of course the assassination in MoW is far weaker, but RfP helps and not relying on ranged attacks might help into DarkHost. This needs a lot of testing.
Cetrati + Vorkesh + Agonizer - A brick that even Cryx might have trouble with, especially on feat turn. Sacred Ward is of course a massive part of what makes it great. Less good into banes, but hilarious into Pirates. Their speed might be an issue. This will need a lot of testing.
Krea: Keeps Rasheth safe. Without Parasite and with Force Aura the Ghost Shots can hardly harm him.
Archidon: It's an Archidon. Can be sacrificed to put a few boxes into the Wraith Engine. Can kill a few key models and sprint back. It's just so very versatile.
Brute: Boxes to transfer to. A shield guard. Overall a very conservative choice. Could be replaced with more important stuff, but will never be bad.
Soulwards: Guidance. Helps wound the Incop stuff. Helps threaten casters and Occultated Banes.
Ferox: They project threat. One unit is enough for that, might even cut it down to a min unit. They should be very useful for getting to leader models.
Karax: Cheap Arc Nodes. Cheap bodies. Cheap attacks. They're also pretty cheap.
Swordsmen: Should be able to take care of whatever is left once the lines clash. I want to keep them back at first and then unleash them later.
Willbreaker: Sometimes a roll really has to happen. Can be taken out for something more important.
TyCom: He's free.
Strategy: Will write stuff up once I find the time.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 18, 2017 20:42:42 GMT
I get the Fatty love, and Castigate is great into Cryx, but Coven feat will eat him alive. That's the primary advantage of Jumpcats instead of Certrati; they can walk and project long threat. Makeda2 helps with that even more, since her feat will keep them from taking free strikes getting into position.
Eilish is great, Orin is better. Why remove an upkeep when you can negate the casting on a critical turn?
Magic weapons are good of course, but if you're able to threaten the warcaster directly, and can ignore free strikes, then it's less of an issue. Hell, you can advance directly through the incorporeal models and take a linear path. The Denny feat does hurt, but if you can find a way to whether it, and prevent the stacking Parasite or Crippling Grasp, you're in position to counter.
Obviously, it's not perfect, and tech that prevents healing does hurt. But does GF typically bring much of that?
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 18, 2017 21:27:21 GMT
Makeda's feat no longer interacts with free strikes. Dash does, but then you are down to 3 Stay Death and I'm not sure what you gained from it. The list above has cats. They're there precisely to project threat, but that is not all there is to it. Cats under Makeda trade somewhat favorably into Bane Riders, probably better than under Rasheth. But then you're leaving yourself wide open to fleet.
Negating upkeeps is precisely the purpose of Castigate. Killing Denny on her feat with cats is nigh-on impossible as they cannot jump or charge. If Denny is still in range after her feat I seriously question the quality of the Denny player.
Ghost fleet usually brings 2 Stalkers which trade for 4-5 cats. The real issue is the amount of mid-quality attacks. 6 stay deaths is very little when each pirate wounds around 1.7 times. Preventing these wounds via Breath seems like a better plan to me.
But go ahead. Play Makeda2 into Fleet. Maybe you'll be more fortunate than I was before theme. Back then RfP wasn't the only issue though.
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