granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 18, 2017 22:03:45 GMT
zich I get the rasheth list now thanks for taking the time to explain it all. I would really love to see some pics and a battle report as I have had issues getting rasheth to work for me usually by getting him killed or not getting clouds in the right places so seeing some pics of how that works would really help me. I also really like running the cetrati like you do in your list but I have never run double cats so I can't say it is "better" than 2X ferox but I do really like having the cetrati in the list. boozyThe main difference I have between Elish and orin is spacing. Orin's arcane vortex aura is 3". I find it detrimental to keep all the cats within this 3" aura and because the effect requires the spell to target a model in orin's aura the cryx player will simply target a cat that is not in the 3" aura and get the upkeep on the unit anyway. So I dojo'ed turning to Elish to take off the upkeep once it gets on there because PP decided to give us an anti-cryx list with no access to the shaman for some reason.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 18, 2017 23:07:21 GMT
boozy "The main difference I have between Elish and orin is spacing. Orin's arcane vortex aura is 3". I find it detrimental to keep all the cats within this 3" aura and because the effect requires the spell to target a model in orin's aura the cryx player will simply target a cat that is not in the 3" aura and get the upkeep on the unit anyway. So I dojo'ed turning to Elish to take off the upkeep once it gets on there because PP decided to give us an anti-cryx list with no access to the shaman for some reason."I get the drawback to Orin and spacing. I think though that another thing needs to be considered. If Denny pops The Withering, and can land either Parasite or Crippling Grasp, there won't be a unit left to dispel on. Those GF rifles will definitely hit and either kill or overwhelm Stay Death. The other day on Arcane Assist, I saw two units of Ferox stacked in one bubble. I don't think it needs to go that far, two Krea is doable. Paralytic Aura offsets The Withering penalty to DEF, and hitting 13's can be a problem. A miss means a possible 2" advance closer to her, a CRA reduces the volume of fire possible. One last thing about Makeda2 Jumpcats: even with double kitties, there's room for a max unit of Swordsmen+UA. That could easily become Keltarii, and a first turn Dash+Tyrant can put them ridiculously close in jamming (especially if going first). Or, a smaller unit of something for soul food, and some Extollers for magic zaps. I have my list with no PGBH, since my beasts are either for riling or a cheap animus, and I try to blow my stack each turn with Stay Death. Those 5-7 points can be used for nice things.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 19, 2017 0:41:12 GMT
I guess I just didn’t not stack my ferox that tight. I did see the game you were talking about seemed the close spacing was bad for Skorne. I liked karax before the SA hit but I have not played them sense. Keltarii I played once with mac1 and they were good do they still hold up?
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 19, 2017 0:51:09 GMT
"I guess I just didn’t not stack my ferox that tight. I did see the game you were talking about seemed the close spacing was bad for Skorne. I liked karax before the SA hit but I have not played them sense. Keltarii I played once with mac1 and they were good do they still hold up?" They are all right in some places. I have my issues with them, namely I need them to jam and then die in range of soul collectors, which is hard to do without getting them killed (outside the Zaals). In Makeda2, they might be fine, I haven't tried. I like Swordsmen with her, especially because of the Vengeance benefit and Pathfinder on the charge. They don't have magic weapons, but with sidestep, they can threaten two pirates or banes a turn, or at least jam.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 19, 2017 8:04:45 GMT
granor: Yes, the positioning in that game was an issue. MakCats really dislike continuous effects, even if the Willbreaker can remove it. Stacking cats in the Krea aura is usually a mistake if you're not playing into very ranged-heavy lists. I'll try that Rasheth list at ClogCon, so at the beginning of November. I wasn't actually planning to play Rasheth, so he's still unpainted, but I'll get it done by then. Hopefully I'll remember to take some pictures for battle reports. The issue I'm anticipating: Rasheth in Winds is probably just straight-up better.
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Post by sentinel on Oct 19, 2017 13:52:33 GMT
The issue I'm anticipating: Rasheth in Winds is probably just straight-up better. While I agree that Rasheth counters cryx better, Makeda has great synergy with cats and can be used with greater effect in other matchups. I dont have practice against ghost fleet, but how I can see in theory Mak2 matchup against them: Mak2 player most likely win initiative and run upfield under Krea aura; Lets assume we dont use deflection, just camp. Denny player puts cripling grasp on a unit and start shooting it. He got 5 shots from solos (hit on 6, -5 on dmg), 3 CRA from rifles (hit on 5, -4 on dmg) and some shots from pirates which hit on 8s. I sont think that would be enought to burn through Mak2 fury and kill at least single cat. Cats go in, kill some pirates (i can imagine 10 pirates killed easily) which are rfp and reposition into melee. Denny feats, charge with remaining pirates and kills most of cats. Mak2 counterfeats and kills most pirates with cats and cetrati/sworsmen/legends - any 2nd line units. Of course that very much depends of how Denny player uses wraith engine and lights with grevious wounds, but i see this as not that bad matchup. Or am i missing something?
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 19, 2017 14:29:52 GMT
Into GF you have a 50% chance to win the starting roll with MoW as both get +1. You don't really need the Krea aura on the cats in most cases, but it will be useful on Makeda.
You need to keep in mind that GF is not a ranged list. A min unit of Revenants with Rifles can shoot three times. Or they can charge in and attack 18 times. GF just happens to have good shooting solos and a bonkers ranged assassination, but the ranged game is not their preferred vector of attrition.
The main problems are: 1) Makeda dies to the ranged assassination, unless you feat defensively or bring a Brute and cast its animus every turn. 2) Even going second, Stalkers threaten 29" into the board on turn one. That really limits the mobility of the cats, which is one of the main reasons you are taking them. 3) This leads into the next issue. Denny will put up a lot of scenario pressure. If you don't bring enough magical weapons you will not be scoring any points on most scenarios. She will. And she can really zone you out of contesting backwards scenario elements. The scoring power of Machine Wraiths can also not be overstated; they're not Gremlin Swarms, but they're close. 4) You will not accomplish much on Denny's feat turn. It reduces the Cats' threat to 8". That is without Crippling Grasp, but also without Push to the Limit.
Makeda does nothing to solve these issues. I agree that Mak2Cats is probably generally stronger than RashethMoW. But as you already noted, Rasheth counters Cryx better. I'd go so far as to say that in contrast to Makeda2 he actually counters Cryx at all.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Oct 21, 2017 7:59:47 GMT
If you are playing into Cryx, you should be using the Exhalted theme, not MoW. You also shouldn't be playing a crazy cat lady list. I'd suggest Zaal1 or maybe even Mordi. Right now I'm experimenting with the Efaarit Scouts solo and he's be working like a charm for taking care of armor skew. As far as the crazy cat lady list not having magical weapons, check out rhadeim
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Post by sentinel on Oct 21, 2017 9:12:45 GMT
If you are playing into Cryx, you should be using the Exhalted theme, not MoW. You also shouldn't be playing a crazy cat lady list. I'd suggest Zaal1 or maybe even Mordi. Right now I'm experimenting with the Efaarit Scouts solo and he's be working like a charm for taking care of armor skew. As far as the crazy cat lady list not having magical weapons, check out rhadeim How Exalted should deal with pirates being constantly ressurected? Every turn 9 pirates are put onto table and its very hard to kill last of the unit without long range shooting / arc node.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 21, 2017 11:17:38 GMT
I don't really see Rhadeim taking care of 6 Ghost pirates and one Wraith Engine. With the 7 turn limit he would literally have to oneshot one per turn for the entire game.
I want to try Exhalted into Cryx with Rasheth or Hexy2, but I'm still waiting for all the missing parts of my final Immortals unit.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 21, 2017 12:17:10 GMT
MoW can bring soulwards. If magic weapons are an issue you don't HAVE to move out of theme to get them. I am pretty down on the immortals though so take that into account.
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Post by dragonpup on Oct 21, 2017 15:09:43 GMT
Morghoul3's feat gives the cats acrobatics which means if the impact attacks fail to clear a model or two the charge doesn't fail. And it makes screening against a walk/jump much harder. He's certainly worthy of discussion.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 21, 2017 18:42:49 GMT
Exalted theme might do ok into GF with Hexy1 or Zaal2 but until the theme gets CiD love and new releases it's not doing anything for the other Cryx matchups.
Instead might I suggest Makeda1? Using Cats + Keltarii + Cetrati. Molik + Gladiator + Scarabs. She attritions well enough for 1 turn to gain an advantage against GF whilst also picking up the shots that will kill off cats outside of feat.
Against Dark Host you've got Jackhammer and/or additional walking threat to get through coven feat. It's not an overall stronger list, but it's better into Cryx IMO.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Oct 21, 2017 19:54:25 GMT
having 25, ps 13 magical weapon attacks at a minimum of mat 7 without even including the caster SHOULD be enough to kill over 9 frigg'n pirates x.x Plus you have your caster and your unit attachments to the immortals. Need more magic? Drake sprays x.O
however, Exhalted theme does get hit hard from denegra1, no doubt. Yeah, exhalted can trample over her forces but her support and corrosion spray is just nasty against 1 boxed, slow moving models. But! that's where Zaal1 comes into play. Exhalted units are non-living non-undead construct units that generate souls. Zaal1 automatically decides where all souls in his ctrl area go, regardless of proximity heavily cramping cryx's normal play style and making the wraith engine moot (it only generates machine wraiths when it kills a living model). When you include the fact that exhalted models have vengeance and that killing an Ancestral Guardian spawns *drool* Kovaas, a cryx ghost fleet would still piss their pants in front of an exhalted list.
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hoksune
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 5
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Post by hoksune on Oct 21, 2017 21:38:15 GMT
having 25, ps 13 magical weapon attacks at a minimum of mat 7 without even including the caster SHOULD be enough to kill over 9 frigg'n pirates x.x Plus you have your caster and your unit attachments to the immortals. Need more magic? Drake sprays x.O however, Exhalted theme does get hit hard from denegra1, no doubt. Yeah, exhalted can trample over her forces but her support and corrosion spray is just nasty against 1 boxed, slow moving models. But! that's where Zaal1 comes into play. Exhalted units are non-living non-undead construct units that generate souls. Zaal1 automatically decides where all souls in his ctrl area go, regardless of proximity heavily cramping cryx's normal play style and making the wraith engine moot (it only generates machine wraiths when it kills a living model). When you include the fact that exhalted models have vengeance and that killing an Ancestral Guardian spawns *drool* Kovaas, a cryx ghost fleet would still piss their pants in front of an exhalted list. Don't take this the wrong way but I think you have a very poor idea of what ghost fleet cares about. Zaal1 is very susceptible to dying, immortals aren't difficult for the list to kill and you don't have good RFP access. You also don't really have solid spot removal to get at the far away pirates. Machine Wraiths aren't important as you don't have any warjacks anyway. Soul generation isn't a big deal for GF. Being able to attack the Wraith Engine and Blackbanes do not come close to making you favoured in this game, especially with your melee force vs Deneghra1.
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