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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 26, 2017 19:10:31 GMT
oncomingstorm I think you're being a bit hyperbolic. One theme has access to fairly applicable Dark Shroud (dark host). The battle engine gets close, but it also blocks charge lanes (because it's huge butt stands in the way, even if it doesn't attack you can't just sit inside of it) and all of these effects apply the defense-in-melee bonus. Sure, but the wraith engine has a 14" run, 2" reach, and is incorporeal. I've rarely seen it have a problem get where it needs to in order to apply dark shroud, without blocking the charge lane. Reasonably often, it can just run into the back arc of whatever you need dead, and apply dark shroud from there. I didn't count the target in melee bonus because we're talking pure jack damage here. Naturally, it's an impediment if you're trying to kill something with ranged damage (though Denny1's feat + CG pretty well cancels out the target in melee penalty). But I might be overstating access to dark shroud, it's true. still, even without it, Cryx jacks hit plenty hard.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Nov 26, 2017 19:12:00 GMT
-Carapace is only equivalent to a +4 armor buff against gunline lists without any melee punch whatsoever. That is exactly the argument you used to justify BI being a fair and balanced theme benefit. When Cryx has roots of the earth get back to me. Still OP, additional def maybe. Which also requires you to commit an infantry unit. There's a reason there's no cheap incorporeal solos in scourge. Remember that you have to have a unit/solo to commit to trigger gang fighter. Again, that's why there aren't any cheap solos (that can move) in SFR. Def 12, arm 17 vs def 14/arm 18 with a spammable arm buff and a feat that gets you up to arm 20? You protest too much.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 26, 2017 19:17:27 GMT
'having to commit a unit' is not a cost when you have units that are speed 6 and dirt cheap to trigger gang fighter off of.
Def 14, Arm 18...seriously? Stop acting like Warpwolves can warp all of their warps any given turn. Also, 'multiple spammable arm buffs' is laughable - every armor buff aside from Roots is a single target upkeep. Also, if the best argument you can find is 'your more expensive warpwolf hits less hard, and costs significantly more, but hey - it can be marginally more durable on turns it's not attacking anything' I think that says a lot about the strength of your argument, period.
Anyways, I just realized that you are one of the...three or so Cryx players on that godawful Satyxis raiders thread in the CID forums, so I doubt this is going anywhere productive.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Nov 26, 2017 19:21:51 GMT
'having to commit a unit' is not a cost when you have units that are speed 6 and dirt cheap to trigger gang fighter off of. "Your resources are free, mine cost me stuff" "I can't use all my buffs at once, therefore they don't exist. I only have one spammable arm buff and a feat that would give my army a +6 bonus against ranged with carapace. That doesn't exist either" "My behavior is very productive"
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Post by chillychinaman on Nov 26, 2017 19:40:43 GMT
As a lurker for that past couple pages, I just wanted to say:
Gang Fighter /is/ pretty easy to trigger if you just run a trooper, hopefully cheap, out of formation. Compared to Primal forfeiting your next activation I think gang fighter is definitely better, especially since it only comes on either an expensive heavy or an animus-bot light. Since Cryx /is/ the "infantry" faction, you'd probably be taking multiple units anyway right? Plenty of chances to trigger Gang Fighter.
Edit: One more thing, on debuffs vs buffs assuming the +/-'s are equal: Debuffs are only limited by the number of your models you can cram around the targets. This makes them great for cracking singular, hardy targets. the potential for damage is doubled for upkeeps. Upkeeps are hard-capped at 2 targets max, be they models or units. This obviously doesn't apply to rare DUR:RND or Aura style buffs.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 26, 2017 19:59:05 GMT
oncomingstorm I think you're being a bit hyperbolic. One theme has access to fairly applicable Dark Shroud (dark host). The battle engine gets close, but it also blocks charge lanes (because it's huge butt stands in the way, even if it doesn't attack you can't just sit inside of it) and all of these effects apply the defense-in-melee bonus. Still doesn’t mean cryx jacks can’t hit pretty darn hard woth most casters. Gang + generic -2 Arm Debuff makes slayers and seethers really scary. My issue is less with theme benefits as much as the units themselves. And even then, I have 0 issues with cryx jacks (seether is kind of silly in BI but not OP). I just think when certain people jump on here and say “CRYX JACKS ARE BAD!” It shows how skewed thier perspective is. The average heavy Warjack is 11/19 with around 30 boxes of damage. They are also average speed 5 and Mat 6. Cryx sacrifices 2 Arm and a few boxes over the average heavy for: +1 Speed, +1 Mat, And +2 Def (Def 13 is a big deal for Mat 6 Models) That’s not considering Crab jacks. I think cryx jacks, with the given themes are mostly acceptable if not great. My issue has and will be cryx units being above the curve of other factions options while having very powerful casters and feats that support those units. Honestly though, this thread has kind of devolved at this point. People can’t seem to have a reasonable discussion and disagree without getting but hurt.
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Post by Swampmist on Nov 26, 2017 20:08:26 GMT
macdaddy chiming in and calling people butthurt isn't helpful.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 26, 2017 20:09:44 GMT
oncomingstorm I think you're being a bit hyperbolic. One theme has access to fairly applicable Dark Shroud (dark host). The battle engine gets close, but it also blocks charge lanes (because it's huge butt stands in the way, even if it doesn't attack you can't just sit inside of it) and all of these effects apply the defense-in-melee bonus. Still doesn’t mean cryx jacks can’t hit pretty darn hard woth most casters. Gang + generic -2 Arm Debuff makes slayers and seethers really scary. My issue is less with theme benefits as much as the units themselves. And even then, I have 0 issues with cryx jacks (seether is kind of silly in BI but not OP). I just think when certain people jump on here and say “CRYX JACKS ARE BAD!” It shows how skewed thier perspective is. The average heavy Warjack is 11/19 with around 30 boxes of damage. They are also average speed 5 and Mat 6. Cryx sacrifices 2 Arm and a few boxes over the average heavy for: +1 Speed, +1 Mat, And +2 Def (Def 13 is a big deal for Mat 6 Models) That’s not considering Crab jacks. I think cryx jacks, with the given themes are mostly acceptable if not great. My issue has and will be cryx units being above the curve of other factions options while having very powerful casters and feats that support those units. Honestly though, this thread has kind of devolved at this point. People can’t seem to have a reasonable discussion and disagree without getting but hurt. Gonna jump in and say that I agree with this 100%. I don't think cryx jacks are OP, but I think it's disingenuous to say that cryx jacks are 'bad' for their cost. If you want legitimately overcosted beasts/jacks, look at circle living beasts.
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Post by Swampmist on Nov 26, 2017 20:24:38 GMT
aaaaaaand we're done here. Y'all better calm down, if something like this happens again everyone involved is gonna have a bad time.
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Post by Cryptix on Nov 26, 2017 20:25:32 GMT
Since it's clear that people can't avoid insulting others over what kind of army men we play this thread is going to the timeout corner for good this time
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